Green as a representation of evil

[Joy]

Thank you for your replies. This has been a very enlightening discussion.

Saucepan Man - that was an interesting test there. A little gross, but interesting!

[Sharkû]

The real question is, do all of those many, many interpretations of the colour green which have been mentioned here bear any significance towards Tolkien? Is green really the colour of the Quendi? And if so, does it make them seem dangerous or even evil?

[Kransha]

Originally Posted by Sharkû

The real question is, do all of those many, many interpretations of the colour green which have been mentioned here bear any significance towards Tolkien? Is green really the colour of the Quendi? And if so, does it make them seem dangerous or even evil?

Ah, but there is my point 'in fact,' so to speak.

To reference the above paragraph written by yours truly, my opinion holds that the obvious presence of green in the different medium descriptions of Tolkein and its presence in his names outright must say something. Legolas, being Greenleaf, is inevitably good. Greenwood the Great was good until its 'greenness' started to evaporate, thus becoming Mirkwood. Dol Guldur, the citadel of evil in Mirkwood, was set upon the hill of Amon Lanc, which is described as being "bare of trees" and presumably other greenery; it is, after all, called Amon Lanc (read: Bald Hill). I would have to do more research about the Quendi themselves, but I think that there is a certain level of good and evil in most colors. Green isn't inherently evil, but, like a lot of things, can be corrupted. Forests are good, containining wise ents and beauteous trees, but also scary, referencing their ominous vastness and Old Man Willow. Similar with the 'green as a representation of dead stuff' theory. The Barrow-Wights, for all intents and purposes, are just plain bad, but the Dead Men of Dunharrow were corrupted by good (an odd statement). Both sides.

P.S. Someone refresh my memory, were the Dead Men of Dunharrow actually described as green? Or is that just another cinema-induced assumption I came to?

[Bombadil]

In re-reading the Sil, i came upon a quote of green things:

Green things fell sick and rotted...

this behavior occurs after Melkor contaminates much of Arda with his hatred. This would imply that green had an original status of good, and was given a bad connotation by Morgoth- which goes for all that once would have been. Thus, my theory would be that since Melkor was only able to create in mockery of light, his evil affect on green would never match the intensity green could have for light.

[HerenIstarion]

by Kransha

Someone refresh my memory, were the Dead Men of Dunharrow actually described as green? Or is that just another cinema-induced assumption I came to?

Movie thing, no mention of green in the books. First they are described as 'shadows of men' and 'pale', and then thus:

And lo! in the darkness of Mordor my hope rose; for in that gloom the Shadow Host seemed to grow stronger and more terrible to look upon. Some I saw riding, some striding, yet all moving with the same great speed. Silent they were, but there was a gleam in their eyes. In the uplands of Lamedon they overtook our horses, and swept round us, and would have passed us by, if Aragorn had not forbidden them

and thus:

But Aragorn halted and cried with a great voice: “Now come! By the Black Stone I call you! “ And suddenly the Shadow Host that had hung back at the last came up like a grey tide, sweeping all away before it.

Grey is the word

by Bombadil

Thus, my theory would be that since Melkor was only able to create in mockery of light, his evil affect on green would never match the intensity green could have for light

you have the point there.

[The Saucepan Man]

This would imply that green had an original status of good, and was given a bad connotation by Morgoth

Was Eru's original plan (per HoME) that everything (Man, animals, plants, the whole kaboodle) would be undying? If not, Morgoth cannot have been responsible for all of the colour's negative connotations, as there would still have been death, and therefore decay, without him.

[Guinevere]

Quite right, HerenIstarion !!
"Green as a representation of evil? " That idea would never have crossed my mind at all!
I've never heard that green is associated with jealousy and envy. In German the expression is "to turn yellow with envy"!
And green is the colour of hope! I believe this to be so in several other countries as well. (as I remember from the "Hope & Hopelessness" - Thread )

In Tolkien's works I think there are many more examples that green signifies something good than something bad. I think he must have liked green very much, just as the Hobbits did.

Think of the Elfstone (Elessar) and its healing powers! It is green like the sunlight shining through the leaves of trees.

And Frodo's vision of the undying lands: "... a far green country under a swift sunrise"

(Does it surprise you if I tell you that green is my favourite colour? )

[HerenIstarion]

Good point there too, SpM

In later writings men [themselves, that is] hold that they were meant for life everlasting, but for Morgoth and the Fall of Men. Whether that implies that everything else was meant too, I can not tell for sure.

Should we invite Aiwendil and lindil in?