28 or so reasons to read the HoME series {and UT} - Page 2 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Hilde Bracegirdle · 02-09-2003, 02:21 PM

I am currently just starting the third age in Unfinished Tales. I love the book, but dearly wish the footnotes were at the "foot" of the page instead at the end of the chapter. I find myself with 3 bookmarks all falling out as I read! One for the map, one for the chapter & one for the footnotes! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

**lindil** · 02-09-2003, 02:39 PM

lindil acknowledges error on Feanor being 'remorseless'.

Sorry for the overstatement.

I think the thing I got hung up on was his wife Nerdanel asking for the youngest of the sons, Umbarto, to stay, and Feanor denying her, and also Feanor, saying that he guessed that Umbarto wished to take a ship back to Valinor.

It will create a subtle but distinct shift in the Silmarillion to not have the twins Amrod and Amras and to not have the 'seven' sons of feanor, but the Six.

It will, whenever they are mentioned collectively [which is suprisingly frequent] have the effect of silently underscoring Feanor's first act in M-E.

As with virtually every elaboration in HoME over the published Silmarillion, there is serious refinement and improvement.

The Shibboleth is truly a gold mine of lore regarding the Noldorin heirs of Finwe.

I just read the footnote 61 re: Maedhros; that he wore a copper band as did his maternal grandfather.

The revised 'of the Princes of the Eldalie' will read very differently and with far more 3 dimensionality, due to the Shibboleth.

By the way Aiwendil, would it not make more sense to place UT between HoME 11 and 12 than at the begining?

Although the chronology [and build up/cross-referencing] of the footnote relationships would breakdown, you would have something far closer to the chronological order; that is supposing one would not just insert the Tuor and Narn sections into HoME 11.

Anyway, I promise to give it a go this summer, God willing.

I suppose you read every etymological entry also!!

[ February 09, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

Cúdae · 02-09-2003, 07:39 PM

I read the Peoples of Middle-Earth in French, and let me tell you, if you want something that makes Feanor look more than ever like he should have been in a straight jacket and locked up in a padded room, read teh Shibboleth in French. The translator evdiently translated several things incorrectly (one of which shows Feanor in the most uncomplimentary light immaginable- an insane Noldorin ravager of women) and made his own small additions to the footnotes. I haven't seen it anywhere in over a year though, so I believe it went out of print.

In any case, here's some good reasons to read it English: [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
1. More information than you ever wanted to know about the First Age.
2. Awesome portrayal of women in the "Of Lembas" essay (Peoples of Middle-Earth aka volume 12)
3. Great information for an essay on how Tolkien's writings have changed the genre of fantasy in everything from surrealism to Arthurian legends. (I actually wrote this and got an A [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] )
4. Background information that explains some character quirks. (This is mostly for the Silm. and UT but the Histories are good too.)
5. Great information for an essay on how Elves evolved from impish little things in the hills to the majestic beings of some modern fantasy writers. (Wrote this one too, didn't come out quite so well, but was interesting nonetheless.)
and finally
6. You'll realize how uncomplicated your life really is. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[[Heh, I haven't been to the 'Downs in awhile and I'm thrilled at engaging in intelligent conversation again!]]

Inderjit Sanghera · 02-10-2003, 04:34 AM

Feanor a ravager of women? The translator must have been smoking something. Can you elaborate, please? I hate it when people over-exagerate on how evil Feanor was. He was a pretty tragic character, and the death of his mom must have hit him really hard, and the same goes for the death of his dad, who he loved more then anything, Silmaril's included.

Aiwendil · 02-10-2003, 09:35 AM

Inderjit Sanghera:

Quote:

1. Feminism in M-E (Aldarion and Erendis.) I’m not a woman, but I do sympathise, in some ways with non-radical feminism. And it made me laugh.
2. More stories on Finwe and his house! (Home 4,5, 10, 11,12, esp. the Shibboleth of Feanor)
3. ‘Tal-Elmar’ -shows what life may have been like for the Haradrim.
4. ‘Bilbo was getting married’ Originally Bilbo was leaving the Shire to get married! Thank god for Tolkien changing that!
5. HoME 4 shows us early geographical conceptions of Arda.
6. Great psychological discussion in ‘Myths Transformed and Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth’
7. More stories on the first age and al the ages of the Valar.

Excellent points. I particularly agree with you about Tal-Elmar; it offers a very unusual perspective on Middle-earth and the Numenoreans. And there's nothing wrong with sympathizing with feminism - I'm not a woman either, but I would call myself a feminist.

Lindil:

Quote:

It will create a subtle but distinct shift in the Silmarillion to not have the twins Amrod and Amras and to not have the 'seven' sons of feanor, but the Six.

Very much agreed. I look forward to it.

Quote:

By the way Aiwendil, would it not make more sense to place UT between HoME 11 and 12 than at the begining?

Hmmm. Perhaps. Of course, there would also be problems with that. For example, it would result in reading 'The Wanderings of Hurin' prior to the 'Narn i Chin Hurin', which might be kind of strange. Perhaps it would go better between 10 and 11. Then again, assuming one has already read the published Silmarillion, he or she would already have read things out of chronological order. That leads to an interesting thought: suppose a new reader started with HoMe before the Silmarillion, and read everything in the order in which it was written. It boggles the mind.

Quote:

I suppose you read every etymological entry also!!

Yes, but then I also subscribe to Elfling.

Cudae:

Quote:

In any case, here's some good reasons to read it English:
1. More information than you ever wanted to know about the First Age.
2. Awesome portrayal of women in the "Of Lembas" essay (Peoples of Middle-Earth aka volume 12)
3. Great information for an essay on how Tolkien's writings have changed the genre of fantasy in everything from surrealism to Arthurian legends. (I actually wrote this and got an A)
4. Background information that explains some character quirks. (This is mostly for the Silm. and UT but the Histories are good too.)
5. Great information for an essay on how Elves evolved from impish little things in the hills to the majestic beings of some modern fantasy writers. (Wrote this one too, didn't come out quite so well, but was interesting nonetheless.)
and finally
6. You'll realize how uncomplicated your life really is.

Agreed on all points. While we're on the subject of essays, HoMe helped me with one on the synchronicity of 'pagan' and Catholic religion in Tolkien's works.

Cúdae · 02-10-2003, 07:46 PM

Inderjit Sanghera (I hope I spelled your name correctly)- I would copy over the exact lines in French that over-exagerrate poor Feanor's ...erm... slight over possessiveness, but due to the fact that for any French speakers out there it would be read as something rude, disgusting, and unfit for the 'Downs, I won't. Also, my books are elsewhere right now- namely, my locker. Heh.

Aiwendil- Absolutely agreed! Actually, that's the subject of my next English essay. Amazing how Tolkien can help out with such things. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Here's a reason to read the Histories (in English, hehe) if you are a fanfic writer:
There is an immeasurable wealth of untouched loose ends, touched up tied ends, ideas, information, and Tolkien's gift to the fanfiction world: plot bunnies (plot ideas and things to flesh out a plot).

amyrlis · 03-12-2003, 09:49 AM

I'm glad I came across this thread, and several others regarding the HoME series. This is my first attempt at reading any Tolkien beyond UT and I need a little inspiration to keep me going. I am currently a little more than half way through BoLT1, it's a bit tough to get through, what with the footnotes and all (which I'm not skipping). I'm a big fan of reading series in 'order', so I can't skip around and must get through this before moving on to BoLT2, then the rest of the HoME series. Knowing that there is some amazing writing about Finrod (one of my favorite characters) in later volumes will help light a fire under me.

At any rate, it is fascinating reading. I am especially enthralled by the extra attention and detail given to the characters of the Valar. The reader is really given much more insight into their relationships, motives and mind-set. In contrast to the Sil, it's as if the Valar are the 'main' characters and the elves are secondary.

It is interesting how true to their original disposition many of the Valar remain in later writings, and to see which themes were abandoned. For instance, the two Warrior Vali, Measse & Makar, do they appear anywhere else in the series?

I can't help but be blown away (for lack of a better term) by the amount of detail poured into each of the Tales, for example, The Tale of the Sun and the Moon. Just imagining how long it must have taken to write such a tale as that, and then to realize that it is a mere 21 pages in the thousands and thousands of pages of Tolkien's works. I am, and forever will be, in humble awe.

Maerbenn · 03-12-2003, 10:02 AM

Quote:

For instance, the two Warrior Vali, Measse & Makar, do they appear anywhere else in the series?

Meássë also appears in volume III on page 127. Makar also appears in volume IV on pages 7-8.

The Index volume is handy. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Gorwingel · 03-12-2003, 10:10 AM

I don't need any "reasons" to read the HoME and UT, I just need the time. But with the rate I am going at right now, it may have to wait until the summer.

Meoshi · 03-12-2003, 07:09 PM

One more reason:

HoME 4, Shaping of Middle-Earth, answers loads of questions about what is outside of ME(East, North, South). I found many answers to my questions there. (See 'Middle Earth Borders' discussion)

[ March 12, 2003: Message edited by: Meoshi ]

Silmarien · 03-12-2003, 08:17 PM

You laughed when you read Aldarion and Erendis! I would of cried if I was the crying type it was so sad. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]
A great tradgedy I thought.

Oh there's two pages I didn't realise.

I've only read the UT and had a look at SoME and LT 1 & 2 ( I borrowed them from my local library) But I would love too read the rest. I wasn't sure if they'd all come out 'cos the ones I read said CT was still working on them.

[ March 12, 2003: Message edited by: Silmarien ]

Goldberry · 03-23-2003, 02:00 PM

I am very confused. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] Could somebody explain to me what the difference is between HoME and History of Lord of the Rings? Why is HoLotR a different series if it has three of the same books as HoME, or are the books different?

Aiwendil · 03-23-2003, 03:57 PM

The History of the Lord of the Rings is a subseries within the History of Middle-earth. Volumes 6-8 and the first part of 9 of HoMe are the History of the Lord of the Rings. There is also a volume available called, I believe, "The End of the Third Age". This is identical to the first part of volume 9 of HoMe (that is, it's only the LotR related material, with no Notion Club or Drowning of Anadune).

Goldberry · 03-23-2003, 04:06 PM

Thank you, Aiwendil. So History of Lord of the Rings is identical to volumes 6-8 and the first part of 9 of HoME? When I looked at Volume 1 of the History of Lord of the Rings, which is volume 6 of the HoME, it looked like a sort of early stage of FotR, up to Balin's tomb in Moria . Is that right?

**lindil** · 03-23-2003, 07:56 PM

Exactly.

If you are looking to acquire all of HoME you will need to get at least IX (Sauron Defeated) in HB. VI-VII HB's/pb'sare identical to each other.

**lindil** · 04-05-2003, 01:58 AM

this thread has a rather extensive guide for aid in pondering which books to read in which order, focusing especially on HoM-E

02-09-2003, 02:39 PM	#42
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	lindil acknowledges error on Feanor being 'remorseless'. Sorry for the overstatement. I think the thing I got hung up on was his wife Nerdanel asking for the youngest of the sons, Umbarto, to stay, and Feanor denying her, and also Feanor, saying that he guessed that Umbarto wished to take a ship back to Valinor. It will create a subtle but distinct shift in the Silmarillion to not have the twins Amrod and Amras and to not have the 'seven' sons of feanor, but the Six. It will, whenever they are mentioned collectively [which is suprisingly frequent] have the effect of silently underscoring Feanor's first act in M-E. As with virtually every elaboration in HoME over the published Silmarillion, there is serious refinement and improvement. The Shibboleth is truly a gold mine of lore regarding the Noldorin heirs of Finwe. I just read the footnote 61 re: Maedhros; that he wore a copper band as did his maternal grandfather. The revised 'of the Princes of the Eldalie' will read very differently and with far more 3 dimensionality, due to the Shibboleth. By the way Aiwendil, would it not make more sense to place UT between HoME 11 and 12 than at the begining? Although the chronology [and build up/cross-referencing] of the footnote relationships would breakdown, you would have something far closer to the chronological order; that is supposing one would not just insert the Tuor and Narn sections into HoME 11. Anyway, I promise to give it a go this summer, God willing. I suppose you read every etymological entry also!! [ February 09, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

02-09-2003, 07:39 PM	#43
Cúdae Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 160	I read the Peoples of Middle-Earth in French, and let me tell you, if you want something that makes Feanor look more than ever like he should have been in a straight jacket and locked up in a padded room, read teh Shibboleth in French. The translator evdiently translated several things incorrectly (one of which shows Feanor in the most uncomplimentary light immaginable- an insane Noldorin ravager of women) and made his own small additions to the footnotes. I haven't seen it anywhere in over a year though, so I believe it went out of print. In any case, here's some good reasons to read it English: [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] 1. More information than you ever wanted to know about the First Age. 2. Awesome portrayal of women in the "Of Lembas" essay (Peoples of Middle-Earth aka volume 12) 3. Great information for an essay on how Tolkien's writings have changed the genre of fantasy in everything from surrealism to Arthurian legends. (I actually wrote this and got an A [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ) 4. Background information that explains some character quirks. (This is mostly for the Silm. and UT but the Histories are good too.) 5. Great information for an essay on how Elves evolved from impish little things in the hills to the majestic beings of some modern fantasy writers. (Wrote this one too, didn't come out quite so well, but was interesting nonetheless.) and finally 6. You'll realize how uncomplicated your life really is. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [[Heh, I haven't been to the 'Downs in awhile and I'm thrilled at engaging in intelligent conversation again!]] __________________ "And if you listen very hard/ The tune will come to you at last/ When all are one and one is all/ To be a rock and not to roll." --Led Zeppelin "Stairway to Heaven"

02-10-2003, 04:34 AM	#44
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	Feanor a ravager of women? The translator must have been smoking something. Can you elaborate, please? I hate it when people over-exagerate on how evil Feanor was. He was a pretty tragic character, and the death of his mom must have hit him really hard, and the same goes for the death of his dad, who he loved more then anything, Silmaril's included. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

02-10-2003, 07:46 PM	#46
Cúdae Wight Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 160	Inderjit Sanghera (I hope I spelled your name correctly)- I would copy over the exact lines in French that over-exagerrate poor Feanor's ...erm... slight over possessiveness, but due to the fact that for any French speakers out there it would be read as something rude, disgusting, and unfit for the 'Downs, I won't. Also, my books are elsewhere right now- namely, my locker. Heh. Aiwendil- Absolutely agreed! Actually, that's the subject of my next English essay. Amazing how Tolkien can help out with such things. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Here's a reason to read the Histories (in English, hehe) if you are a fanfic writer: There is an immeasurable wealth of untouched loose ends, touched up tied ends, ideas, information, and Tolkien's gift to the fanfiction world: plot bunnies (plot ideas and things to flesh out a plot). __________________ "And if you listen very hard/ The tune will come to you at last/ When all are one and one is all/ To be a rock and not to roll." --Led Zeppelin "Stairway to Heaven"

03-12-2003, 09:49 AM	#47
amyrlis Wight Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Helcaraxe Posts: 210	I'm glad I came across this thread, and several others regarding the HoME series. This is my first attempt at reading any Tolkien beyond UT and I need a little inspiration to keep me going. I am currently a little more than half way through BoLT1, it's a bit tough to get through, what with the footnotes and all (which I'm not skipping). I'm a big fan of reading series in 'order', so I can't skip around and must get through this before moving on to BoLT2, then the rest of the HoME series. Knowing that there is some amazing writing about Finrod (one of my favorite characters) in later volumes will help light a fire under me. At any rate, it is fascinating reading. I am especially enthralled by the extra attention and detail given to the characters of the Valar. The reader is really given much more insight into their relationships, motives and mind-set. In contrast to the Sil, it's as if the Valar are the 'main' characters and the elves are secondary. It is interesting how true to their original disposition many of the Valar remain in later writings, and to see which themes were abandoned. For instance, the two Warrior Vali, Measse & Makar, do they appear anywhere else in the series? I can't help but be blown away (for lack of a better term) by the amount of detail poured into each of the Tales, for example, The Tale of the Sun and the Moon. Just imagining how long it must have taken to write such a tale as that, and then to realize that it is a mere 21 pages in the thousands and thousands of pages of Tolkien's works. I am, and forever will be, in humble awe. __________________ "Pull the blinders from my eyes, let me see these endless skies And drown here where I stand in the beauty of the land."

02-09-2003, 02:21 PM	#41
Hilde Bracegirdle Relic of Wandering Days Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: You'll See Perpetual Change. Posts: 1,480	I am currently just starting the third age in Unfinished Tales. I love the book, but dearly wish the footnotes were at the "foot" of the page instead at the end of the chapter. I find myself with 3 bookmarks all falling out as I read! One for the map, one for the chapter & one for the footnotes! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

03-12-2003, 10:10 AM	#49
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	I don't need any "reasons" to read the HoME and UT, I just need the time. But with the rate I am going at right now, it may have to wait until the summer. __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

03-12-2003, 07:09 PM	#50
Meoshi Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Atop the peak of Kalormë Posts: 163	One more reason: HoME 4, Shaping of Middle-Earth, answers loads of questions about what is outside of ME(East, North, South). I found many answers to my questions there. (See 'Middle Earth Borders' discussion) [ March 12, 2003: Message edited by: Meoshi ]

03-12-2003, 08:17 PM	#51
Silmarien Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Lost but Found Posts: 199	You laughed when you read Aldarion and Erendis! I would of cried if I was the crying type it was so sad. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] A great tradgedy I thought. Oh there's two pages I didn't realise. I've only read the UT and had a look at SoME and LT 1 & 2 ( I borrowed them from my local library) But I would love too read the rest. I wasn't sure if they'd all come out 'cos the ones I read said CT was still working on them. [ March 12, 2003: Message edited by: Silmarien ] __________________ Though here at journeys end I lie in dakness buried deep, beyond all towers strong and high beyond all mountains steep, above all shadows rides the Sun and Stars forever dwell:I will not say the Day is done nor bid the Stars farewell!

03-23-2003, 02:00 PM	#52
Goldberry Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: The Old Forest Posts: 338	I am very confused. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] Could somebody explain to me what the difference is between HoME and History of Lord of the Rings? Why is HoLotR a different series if it has three of the same books as HoME, or are the books different? __________________ "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein

03-23-2003, 03:57 PM	#53
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	The History of the Lord of the Rings is a subseries within the History of Middle-earth. Volumes 6-8 and the first part of 9 of HoMe are the History of the Lord of the Rings. There is also a volume available called, I believe, "The End of the Third Age". This is identical to the first part of volume 9 of HoMe (that is, it's only the LotR related material, with no Notion Club or Drowning of Anadune).

03-23-2003, 04:06 PM	#54
Goldberry Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: The Old Forest Posts: 338	Thank you, Aiwendil. So History of Lord of the Rings is identical to volumes 6-8 and the first part of 9 of HoME? When I looked at Volume 1 of the History of Lord of the Rings, which is volume 6 of the HoME, it looked like a sort of early stage of FotR, up to Balin's tomb in Moria . Is that right? __________________ "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein

03-23-2003, 07:56 PM	#55
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	Exactly. If you are looking to acquire all of HoME you will need to get at least IX (Sauron Defeated) in HB. VI-VII HB's/pb'sare identical to each other. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

04-05-2003, 01:58 AM	#56
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	this thread has a rather extensive guide for aid in pondering which books to read in which order, focusing especially on HoM-E __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.