Fiction in Middle Earth - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 04-16-2003, 02:08 AM

Something occured to me last night, but maybe I'll be arguing against myself, because I now think there is 'fiction', or sub creation in ME.
Its to do with the difference between magic & art.
In an interview Christopher Tolkien has said that Magic is the Machine, it attempts to change the 'primary' world. Art, on the other hand, at least in its highest form, attempts to sub create a 'secondary' world in the mind.
There is an Elvish sub creation in ME, but its not to do with telling stories, its to do with sub creating 'secondary' worlds in a more 'substantial' way. Elvish sub creation is found in both Lorien & Rivendell.
This brings in an idea from another thread, on 'Gated Communities' in ME, where I suggested it was more a case of 'gated worlds'.
The key, I think, is the way those 'worlds' seem to have a different atmosphere, even Time moves/is experienced differently there.
Lorien & Rivendell are sub created, dream, worlds. They 'impinge' on the 'primary' world of ME, but exist outside of it. There are 'gates' through which it is possible to enter them, but they are not part of the 'primary' ME.
Unfortunately, as 'dreams' they must fade, naturally, or be held in being by some force, which is where 'magic, the Machine' comes in, so the Elves turn to the Rings. It is the Machine which 'embalms' the Elves Art. But the Elves finally realise this, & in the episode where Galadriel rejects the One Ring, they accept it & move on from ME.

04-16-2003, 02:08 AM	#28
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Something occured to me last night, but maybe I'll be arguing against myself, because I now think there is 'fiction', or sub creation in ME. Its to do with the difference between magic & art. In an interview Christopher Tolkien has said that Magic is the Machine, it attempts to change the 'primary' world. Art, on the other hand, at least in its highest form, attempts to sub create a 'secondary' world in the mind. There is an Elvish sub creation in ME, but its not to do with telling stories, its to do with sub creating 'secondary' worlds in a more 'substantial' way. Elvish sub creation is found in both Lorien & Rivendell. This brings in an idea from another thread, on 'Gated Communities' in ME, where I suggested it was more a case of 'gated worlds'. The key, I think, is the way those 'worlds' seem to have a different atmosphere, even Time moves/is experienced differently there. Lorien & Rivendell are sub created, dream, worlds. They 'impinge' on the 'primary' world of ME, but exist outside of it. There are 'gates' through which it is possible to enter them, but they are not part of the 'primary' ME. Unfortunately, as 'dreams' they must fade, naturally, or be held in being by some force, which is where 'magic, the Machine' comes in, so the Elves turn to the Rings. It is the Machine which 'embalms' the Elves Art. But the Elves finally realise this, & in the episode where Galadriel rejects the One Ring, they accept it & move on from ME. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."