Lothlorien- self sufficient community? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lobelia · 06-06-2004, 09:19 PM

I like this discussion! It's a thought I've had for a while, and wrote an article (fanzine) called "Who Washes The Dishes In Rivendell?". Elves all seem to be aristocrats, except in Mirkwood, where there are Elvish servants, guards, even peasants. It says in THE HOBBIT that they don't grow anything or make stuff, but they buy from Laketown and the south (that's where the wine comes from - from other Elvish communities? (Elvish vineyards and wineries would probably produce gourmet stuff. ) No wonder Thranduil is so keen to go to Erebor to pick up some treasure after Smaug is dead! It does, though, say that his people help in the re-building of Laketown and are very good at their work.

But Lothlorien? I think it is, more or less, self-sufficient. They're a small community and probably wouldn't need a whole lot. What Galadriel gives Sam is soil from her orchard, so they grow fruit. And if fruit, why not other stuff? We don't know what the rope is made from, but the Elves tell Sam they could have shown him how to make it if they'd known he was interested, so presumably there's nothing magical about the process, even if the finished product does strange things. If you can make rope, you can probably make cloth too. Hemp is a fine alternative to cotton. Lothlorien - and Rivendell too - strikes me as a sort of artists' colony. It's not so much what they make as how well they make it. They can make even bread and fruit taste wonderful, as Frodo, Pippin and Sam find when they meet Gildor and co.

drigel · 06-07-2004, 08:42 AM

Nice points being made here! Dueling mandolins.. mabye?? hehe hmmm squeal like a warg?

I think that in The Hobbit we get to see the goofy underbelly of a typical elven community, because of the theme of the book (cmon, in The Hobbit, even the Rivendell folk were a fun loving crowd, 'a la The Knights of the Round Table of the Holy Grail) and because of Bilbo being invisible and sneaking around. In LOTR, the communities seem more "aristocratic" only because of the serious nature of the theme.

I would like to think that if one were to walk invisible amonst the rank and file of Lorien, one would observe the goofy fun loving folk that is demonstrated by Thranduils kin in The Hobbit. Granted, the Mirkwood elves were mainly Avari, and the "aristocrats" there were probably more rustic than those in Rivendell or Lorien. But there would be a segment of the population that, while contributing to the community by farming or doing the dishes, would prefer a goblet of wine and a song over anything else. I think that for and elvish community in any local, donning the overalls and growing things, or having a hunting expedition would be a task that is easily taken.

Lachwen · 06-08-2004, 04:04 PM

Quote:

..."Who Washes The Dishes In Rivendell?"

I wonder if the Rivendell dish-washer uses Dial or Dawn soap? No, wait, if they're like the Elves in The Hobbit, they probably use Joy.

Lachwen · 06-08-2004, 04:38 PM

Hate to be a double-poster, but I just thought of this...

In his early writings, Tolkien often called the Noldor "Gnomes." Now, Galadriel is of the Noldor, so one would assume that some of the other Elves of Lórien were also Noldor, so obviously the raising of crops would have been seen to by...Garden Gnomes...

Lobelia · 06-10-2004, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lachwen

Hate to be a double-poster, but I just thought of this...

In his early writings, Tolkien often called the Noldor "Gnomes." Now, Galadriel is of the Noldor, so one would assume that some of the other Elves of Lórien were also Noldor, so obviously the raising of crops would have been seen to by...Garden Gnomes

Hmm... Does this make Haldir a Guardian Gnome?

I'm sure the dishwashing liquid of Lothlorien and Rivendell is the most artistically produced on Arda.

Lachwen · 06-10-2004, 09:36 PM

Y'know, that brings a new question into my mind...what would Elven bathrooms be like? Would they use two-ply paper for comfort, or one-ply to save the trees? Flush or pit toilets? If flush, WHERE DID THE SEWER PIPE GO??? Certainly not into the Bruinen!

**lindil** · 06-11-2004, 01:04 AM

I have postulated on older threads whose titles are now dim to my memory, that Lorien was indeed isolated from everyone but Imladris, what this basically means is that they were isolated from Thranduil and co. We know this from the strange remark of Celeborn to his kinsman of unknown degree Legolas.

Why would this be? surely even with Dol Guldor right across the river it would be easier to get to and from Mirkwood from Lorien than over the Ered Withrin!

The answer is given in UT [Galadriel and Celeborn appendices I think] where JRRT mentions that rulers like Thranduil and his father held a grudge [re: mengroth's destruction and the sack of the sons of feanor] still, against the Noldor [read specifically galadriel] and wanted nothing to do with them. Especially, one could imagine with Feanors neice who was sympathetic to Dwarves and had been on good terms with Celegorms son! Celebrimbor's renunciation of his dark-dad notwithstanding.

Elrond's sending Legolas was quite possibly an attempt at bridge-building.

Gandalf may also have been at a loss at how to get the Dwarves through or past Thranduils' realm and thus said nothing and wrote no letter of introduction!

There is also the fact that Thranduil would have been doubly ****ed at anyone having anything to do with the Rings of Power [again read Galadriel] as their secert and foolish forging led to the death of his father and a third of his army.

So... was Lorien self sufficient. Absolutely. They had to be. I imagine self-sufficiency to be a a goal and basic element of any Elvish community. Exceptions like trading with dwarves for metals during wartime being an exception.

thranduil would also be an exception as we read in the Hobbit, but that may be due to the fact that Mirkwood was just not as co-operative a forest as Lorien.

-L

06-08-2004, 04:38 PM	#4
Lachwen Wight Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Greenwood the Great. Posts: 115	Hate to be a double-poster, but I just thought of this... In his early writings, Tolkien often called the Noldor "Gnomes." Now, Galadriel is of the Noldor, so one would assume that some of the other Elves of Lórien were also Noldor, so obviously the raising of crops would have been seen to by...Garden Gnomes... __________________ "'...Home is the sailor, home from the sea, And the hunter home from the hill.'"

06-10-2004, 09:36 PM	#6
Lachwen Wight Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Greenwood the Great. Posts: 115	Y'know, that brings a new question into my mind...what would Elven bathrooms be like? Would they use two-ply paper for comfort, or one-ply to save the trees? Flush or pit toilets? If flush, WHERE DID THE SEWER PIPE GO??? Certainly not into the Bruinen! __________________ "'...Home is the sailor, home from the sea, And the hunter home from the hill.'"

06-11-2004, 01:04 AM	#7
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	isolation of lorien I have postulated on older threads whose titles are now dim to my memory, that Lorien was indeed isolated from everyone but Imladris, what this basically means is that they were isolated from Thranduil and co. We know this from the strange remark of Celeborn to his kinsman of unknown degree Legolas. Why would this be? surely even with Dol Guldor right across the river it would be easier to get to and from Mirkwood from Lorien than over the Ered Withrin! The answer is given in UT [Galadriel and Celeborn appendices I think] where JRRT mentions that rulers like Thranduil and his father held a grudge [re: mengroth's destruction and the sack of the sons of feanor] still, against the Noldor [read specifically galadriel] and wanted nothing to do with them. Especially, one could imagine with Feanors neice who was sympathetic to Dwarves and had been on good terms with Celegorms son! Celebrimbor's renunciation of his dark-dad notwithstanding. Elrond's sending Legolas was quite possibly an attempt at bridge-building. Gandalf may also have been at a loss at how to get the Dwarves through or past Thranduils' realm and thus said nothing and wrote no letter of introduction! There is also the fact that Thranduil would have been doubly ****ed at anyone having anything to do with the Rings of Power [again read Galadriel] as their secert and foolish forging led to the death of his father and a third of his army. So... was Lorien self sufficient. Absolutely. They had to be. I imagine self-sufficiency to be a a goal and basic element of any Elvish community. Exceptions like trading with dwarves for metals during wartime being an exception. thranduil would also be an exception as we read in the Hobbit, but that may be due to the fact that Mirkwood was just not as co-operative a forest as Lorien. -L

06-06-2004, 09:19 PM	#1
Lobelia Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 150	I like this discussion! It's a thought I've had for a while, and wrote an article (fanzine) called "Who Washes The Dishes In Rivendell?". Elves all seem to be aristocrats, except in Mirkwood, where there are Elvish servants, guards, even peasants. It says in THE HOBBIT that they don't grow anything or make stuff, but they buy from Laketown and the south (that's where the wine comes from - from other Elvish communities? (Elvish vineyards and wineries would probably produce gourmet stuff. ) No wonder Thranduil is so keen to go to Erebor to pick up some treasure after Smaug is dead! It does, though, say that his people help in the re-building of Laketown and are very good at their work. But Lothlorien? I think it is, more or less, self-sufficient. They're a small community and probably wouldn't need a whole lot. What Galadriel gives Sam is soil from her orchard, so they grow fruit. And if fruit, why not other stuff? We don't know what the rope is made from, but the Elves tell Sam they could have shown him how to make it if they'd known he was interested, so presumably there's nothing magical about the process, even if the finished product does strange things. If you can make rope, you can probably make cloth too. Hemp is a fine alternative to cotton. Lothlorien - and Rivendell too - strikes me as a sort of artists' colony. It's not so much what they make as how well they make it. They can make even bread and fruit taste wonderful, as Frodo, Pippin and Sam find when they meet Gildor and co.

06-07-2004, 08:42 AM	#2
drigel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: commonplace city Posts: 518	Nice points being made here! Dueling mandolins.. mabye?? hehe hmmm squeal like a warg? I think that in The Hobbit we get to see the goofy underbelly of a typical elven community, because of the theme of the book (cmon, in The Hobbit, even the Rivendell folk were a fun loving crowd, 'a la The Knights of the Round Table of the Holy Grail) and because of Bilbo being invisible and sneaking around. In LOTR, the communities seem more "aristocratic" only because of the serious nature of the theme. I would like to think that if one were to walk invisible amonst the rank and file of Lorien, one would observe the goofy fun loving folk that is demonstrated by Thranduils kin in The Hobbit. Granted, the Mirkwood elves were mainly Avari, and the "aristocrats" there were probably more rustic than those in Rivendell or Lorien. But there would be a segment of the population that, while contributing to the community by farming or doing the dishes, would prefer a goblet of wine and a song over anything else. I think that for and elvish community in any local, donning the overalls and growing things, or having a hunting expedition would be a task that is easily taken.