Who/What is Gothmog? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lachwen · 06-10-2004, 09:15 PM

I've always believed that Gothmog was, as Boromir88 said, a Black Númenórean. As for the name...well, it said in the books that the Mouth of Sauron had been in Sauron's service for so long he had forgotten his real name, so, if Gothmog is of his kin, the same thing has probably happened. My guess is that Gothmog was a name given to the Lieutenant of Morgul, as a sign of prestige and power - rather like the battering-ram used against Minas Tirith being called Grond.

PaleStar · 06-27-2004, 05:34 PM

Hm...I may be thinking of the wrong thing but..I thought Gothmog was the Lord Of The Balrogs...or is that completely the wrong person?

NightKnight · 06-28-2004, 05:43 PM

That was one Gothmog, but there was also another. He's mentioned in RotK, when the Witch-King has fallen, as the second commander of Morgul's armies.

The Perky Ent · 06-28-2004, 07:58 PM

Hmm...interesting. I always thought of Gothmog as an orc. Although pink and deformed, if you look around his eyes, mouth, and other parts of his body, you can see a blackness. The same blackness found in the complexion of orcs. I, personally, thought he was a very powerful orc (maybe an Uruk) who killed either a bunch of humans, or pigs (or other pink livestock) and woar it during war. But then, that's just me...

NightKnight · 06-28-2004, 08:21 PM

And that's also the movie version.

He commanded the Morgul host all the way from Osgiliath, in the books WK led the army until he died.

The Perky Ent · 06-28-2004, 08:29 PM

Yes, well, I trust the movie...in some cases. Anyways, what does that have to do with commanding orc armies until he dies. Did I say something that contradicts that fact?

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 06-29-2004, 04:51 AM

The films are not the books. Even if they had followed the details of the books in every way, they would still not answer questions like this, because they are just a visual interpretation of Tolkien's writing. Only J.R.R. Tolkien, as Gothmog's inventor, could say for certain who or what he was supposed to be. Learned speculation based on things that Tolkien did say is acceptable, but to use the films to support that speculation, when we know that they don't even follow the plot of his book, is as ridiculous as using one of our RPGs to do so; more so in my opinion. I think that NightKnight was pointing out an inconsistency between the book and the film to demonstrate just why the films shouldn't be used to explain the books.

This part of the forum is for in-depth discussions of Tolkien's writing. I'm sure that they're interested in speculation about film-Gothmog's race over in Movies, but it just doesn't belong here.

Why am I even arguing this? The whole thread's in the wrong place and redundant, so I don't expect that it'll be open for long.

06-10-2004, 09:15 PM	#1
Lachwen Wight Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Greenwood the Great. Posts: 115	I've always believed that Gothmog was, as Boromir88 said, a Black Númenórean. As for the name...well, it said in the books that the Mouth of Sauron had been in Sauron's service for so long he had forgotten his real name, so, if Gothmog is of his kin, the same thing has probably happened. My guess is that Gothmog was a name given to the Lieutenant of Morgul, as a sign of prestige and power - rather like the battering-ram used against Minas Tirith being called Grond. __________________ "'...Home is the sailor, home from the sea, And the hunter home from the hill.'"

06-27-2004, 05:34 PM	#2
PaleStar Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 43	Hm...I may be thinking of the wrong thing but..I thought Gothmog was the Lord Of The Balrogs...or is that completely the wrong person? __________________ Then down the warrior tumbled/a long and weary way/ 'till at last he rested soundly/ among the water below/ bested by the darkness

06-28-2004, 05:43 PM	#3
NightKnight Lost among the Stars Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hiding in Childhood (Sweden) Posts: 2,690	That was one Gothmog, but there was also another. He's mentioned in RotK, when the Witch-King has fallen, as the second commander of Morgul's armies. __________________ There are three kinds of people in this world. Those who can count, and those who can't.

06-28-2004, 07:58 PM	#4
The Perky Ent Maniacal Mage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side! Posts: 3,297	Hmm...interesting. I always thought of Gothmog as an orc. Although pink and deformed, if you look around his eyes, mouth, and other parts of his body, you can see a blackness. The same blackness found in the complexion of orcs. I, personally, thought he was a very powerful orc (maybe an Uruk) who killed either a bunch of humans, or pigs (or other pink livestock) and woar it during war. But then, that's just me... __________________ 'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

06-28-2004, 08:21 PM	#5
NightKnight Lost among the Stars Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hiding in Childhood (Sweden) Posts: 2,690	And that's also the movie version. He commanded the Morgul host all the way from Osgiliath, in the books WK led the army until he died. __________________ There are three kinds of people in this world. Those who can count, and those who can't.

06-28-2004, 08:29 PM	#6
The Perky Ent Maniacal Mage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side! Posts: 3,297	Yes, well, I trust the movie...in some cases. Anyways, what does that have to do with commanding orc armies until he dies. Did I say something that contradicts that fact? __________________ 'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

06-29-2004, 04:51 AM	#7
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Here we go again The films are not the books. Even if they had followed the details of the books in every way, they would still not answer questions like this, because they are just a visual interpretation of Tolkien's writing. Only J.R.R. Tolkien, as Gothmog's inventor, could say for certain who or what he was supposed to be. Learned speculation based on things that Tolkien did say is acceptable, but to use the films to support that speculation, when we know that they don't even follow the plot of his book, is as ridiculous as using one of our RPGs to do so; more so in my opinion. I think that NightKnight was pointing out an inconsistency between the book and the film to demonstrate just why the films shouldn't be used to explain the books. This part of the forum is for in-depth discussions of Tolkien's writing. I'm sure that they're interested in speculation about film-Gothmog's race over in Movies, but it just doesn't belong here. Why am I even arguing this? The whole thread's in the wrong place and redundant, so I don't expect that it'll be open for long. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?