Lothlorien- self sufficient community?

[Lachwen]

Y'know, that brings a new question into my mind...what would Elven bathrooms be like? Would they use two-ply paper for comfort, or one-ply to save the trees? Flush or pit toilets? If flush, WHERE DID THE SEWER PIPE GO??? Certainly not into the Bruinen!

[lindil]

I have postulated on older threads whose titles are now dim to my memory, that Lorien was indeed isolated from everyone but Imladris, what this basically means is that they were isolated from Thranduil and co. We know this from the strange remark of Celeborn to his kinsman of unknown degree Legolas.

Why would this be? surely even with Dol Guldor right across the river it would be easier to get to and from Mirkwood from Lorien than over the Ered Withrin!

The answer is given in UT [Galadriel and Celeborn appendices I think] where JRRT mentions that rulers like Thranduil and his father held a grudge [re: mengroth's destruction and the sack of the sons of feanor] still, against the Noldor [read specifically galadriel] and wanted nothing to do with them. Especially, one could imagine with Feanors neice who was sympathetic to Dwarves and had been on good terms with Celegorms son! Celebrimbor's renunciation of his dark-dad notwithstanding.

Elrond's sending Legolas was quite possibly an attempt at bridge-building.

Gandalf may also have been at a loss at how to get the Dwarves through or past Thranduils' realm and thus said nothing and wrote no letter of introduction!

There is also the fact that Thranduil would have been doubly ****ed at anyone having anything to do with the Rings of Power [again read Galadriel] as their secert and foolish forging led to the death of his father and a third of his army.

So... was Lorien self sufficient. Absolutely. They had to be. I imagine self-sufficiency to be a a goal and basic element of any Elvish community. Exceptions like trading with dwarves for metals during wartime being an exception.

thranduil would also be an exception as we read in the Hobbit, but that may be due to the fact that Mirkwood was just not as co-operative a forest as Lorien.


-L

[Lady Snickerdoodle]

so obviously the raising of crops would have been seen to by...Garden Gnomes...

Ack am I to be stalked by Garden Gnomes forever????? (sorry just, a lot of events having to do with garden gnomes have been trailing me about recently. like being caught between a friend who vows to kill all garden gnomes as revenge for loosing a landscaping contest and the other friend who was anonymously the 1st place winner)

lindil, great points! i agree, or would, but i have problems with remembering what happened in the indexes. they kind of stretch on a lot on random details. that might be because i was very young at the time when i read them, so i must read them again for summer vacation or something.

elvish toilets... hmm...

[drigel]

Lindil always has awsome points - a true scholar. I always enjoy being motivated to return to the source material he references and revisit the books. The UT's are my favs! The depth of Elven society and its nuances is facsinating, and makes me appreciate JRRT's talent even more. I can see plainly why grudges were continued through the years when you think about the amount of time Oropher and Thanduil had a wonderfull thing going on - then those meddling Noldor come in on the scene and jack everyone up .... at least to their point of view.

I was wondering - what is the lineage of Oropher? Was he Sylvan or Sindarin? Was he involved with anything (at any time) west of the Misty Mountains?


So, based on Lindils insight and references, one can conclude that there must have been at least a minimal amount of farming\gardening going on to produce the lembas? No ideas as to ingrediants i suppose....

[symestreem]

If they built a whole city in the trees, surely they could grow wheat there. Yes, it would be heavy, but elves are special. Didn't they have a whole lawn in the trees? Sorry if that's wrong, my copy is disinegrating. I kind of picture Lorien as Kashyyk, for any Star Wars fans.
Or, perhaps the elves... modified... wheat to grow in the trees and be smaller. Kind of like reverse natural selection.

[Aredhel]

I can offer you three sources of food, two not discussed anywhere in Tolkien's works. They are native to the forests and rivers.

Firstly, I believe that Mallorn trees produced a nut. This could be roasted, dried, and ground to produce anything from flour (and then cakes and so forth) to a hot drink.

Next would be marsh-mallow, which would certainly be a-plenty by the riverside.
Not only can the tufts be used to stuff pillows, but the roots are starchy and can be served roasted, mashed, boiled - what have you! They are nutty in taste. Further, the seed can be ground into flour too, and the pollen can be used similarly.

Sumak (only Bull's horn or Stag's horn) produces large quantities of red berries high in vitamin C. When added to water, the resulting drink is sour, like pink lemonade.

I am just learning of the different edible plants in the wild. One can do anything from drying and smoking them, to finding soap right under our feet. If Lorien was as well taken care of as I think it was, there would be tons of food to be had. One only needs to know where to look! I'm sure the Elves knew all of the plants in their forests.