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Old 06-16-2004, 06:32 AM   #1
mark12_30
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the movies: high, purged of the gross?

In his letters, Tolkien spoke of Middle-Earth in elegant and lofty terms. Here's a quote from letter 131.

Quote:
Do not laugh! But once upon a time (my crest has long since fallen) I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story-the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the vast backcloths – which I could dedicate simply to: to England; to my country. It should possess the tone and quality that I desired, somewhat cool and clear, be redolent of our 'air' (the clime and soil of the North West, meaning Britain and the hither parts of Europe: not Italy or the Aegean, still less the East), and, while possessing (if I could achieve it) the fair elusive beauty that some call Celtic (though it is rarely found in genuine ancient Celtic things), it should be 'high', purged of the gross, and fit for the more adult mind of a land long now steeped in poetry. I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama.
Now that the entire Trilogy is out on film:

Generally, were the movies successful in conveying Tolkien's intentions? Why or why not?

Specifically, what parts do you think were successful and what parts failed?

Similar thread on Tolkien fandom in general.
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Old 06-17-2004, 08:15 PM   #2
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Whoa! Those are a lot of very poetic terms which for me are quite hard to understand. I hope were he talks about the "great tales being told in fuliness" he means that the main parts of the story should emphasized, and others should be minimized. Which if he does mean that, I do think that they achieved that in the films.
Also, in addition, it does sound like that he is talking about the backgrounds and sets in the first part (Was this his opinion on what he would like to see in a film version?). Which I think they very much did a spectacular job on.

I have to go, but I will think about this
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Old 06-17-2004, 10:32 PM   #3
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Yes. I do think that the movies conveyed Middle-Earth very well. Despite all of the problems I have with the way that PJ chose to interpret some things, I love the way they were presented.

I can look over blatant innacuracies ( such as: "Let's hunt some orc!" and the total dropout of Glorfindel) and instead concentrate on the bigger picture, one that is beutiful and oftentimes incredibly detailed, down to the last wind-blown statue.

Yes, I could be better, but PJ did qiute well, I think.
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Old 06-18-2004, 03:17 AM   #4
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Saraphim,

Slightly off tangent, but "Let's hunt some orc" wasn't a blatant innacuracy inasmuch as Jackson borrowed most of the line from Aragorn's speech to Eomer a few days (and a movie) later.

'I am called Strider,' answered Aragorn. 'I came out of the North. I am hunting Orcs.'

Aragorn also states, just before going after Merry and Pippin, 'I will follow the Orcs'.

It just doesn't quite have the ring of a last line for Aragorn does it? Let us hunt some orc sounds a bit better! Although I would have loved to have heard "We will make such a chase as shall be accounted a marvel among the Three Kindreds : Elves. Dwarves, and Men. Forth the Three Hunters!"
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Old 06-18-2004, 07:10 AM   #5
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I think Tolkien would have been horrified with the infamous 'Denethor-eats' scene. The opposite of high.
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Old 06-18-2004, 01:32 PM   #6
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Essex,

"Let's hunt some orc" is an innacuracy because no one in Tolkien's Middle-Earth spoke like that. Not because it is different from the book. It is simply too modern. Sorry, I should have been more clear.
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Old 06-18-2004, 02:26 PM   #7
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Added parts that failed, for me:

After the tumble out of Farmer Maggot's field and into the road, Pippin's "Ooh, that was close."

Gimli's belch at Rohan.

And I agree with Essex about Denethor's drooling....

Gandalf whacking Pippin as Pippin offered fealty to Denethor. Not honorable.

Gandalf whacking Denethor (although in the movie theater I was relieved to see it, Tolkien would not have approved.)

Gandalf and Shadowfax riding Denethor onto the pyre. Again, not heroic at all.

Some parts that suceeded (hugely):

"I would have followed you: my brother, my captain, my king."

Movie-Theoden's gradual increase in devotion to Aragorn as Aragorn earned his respect. Much as I grieved the whole dparture from the books in TTT, this was superbly done. Very noble, very uplifting. I think (considered as a story separate from his) that Tolkien would have approved the character development of Movie-Theoden.
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Old 06-18-2004, 04:54 PM   #8
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Saraphim "Let's hunt some orc" would be conceived as modern. But (and I'm not being petty) as I state in my post, he says "Let us hunt some orc". I've listened to this phrase in the film umpteen times, and this is what I believe Aragorn is saying. Let us is not a modern use of language, but obviosuly Let's, an abbriviated version, is....

I've done a quick search of the term "Let us" just in the fellowship of the ring book, and it appears 51 times!!!!!!!!!
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Old 06-19-2004, 03:09 PM   #9
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I think that, if you want to hear 'let us' then you will hear it, and if you want to hear 'let's' then you will hear it. The two are too similar to really distinguish. All you can do is ask Big Vigs himself to find out what he said.

I think Sam-punches-Gollum should be added to the list.
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Old 06-19-2004, 03:35 PM   #10
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Eomer, there's one I had not thought of. Interesting. I'll be on the lookout for that next time I read through! Certainly Sam had it out for Smeagol, but did he ever indulge it-- *against his master's wishes*? What would Tolkien have thought of the movie version of Sam and Smeagol...?

Very interesting food for thought.

In terms of "Let's" versus "Let us", I don't think Tolkien would have lost a lot of sleep over that one, and we can move on.

I think there are other items Tolkien would have lost a *lot* more sleep over; epic-level things; mythic-level things. Things involving honor and purity and nobility... Character traits. What think you?

Eomer's point-- Sam and Smeagol-- involves character, and I do think it's key. Let's go back to his description of his heroic, epic mythology:

connected legend
large and cosmogonic
romantic fairy-story
splendour
vast
cool and clear
fair elusive beauty
'high', purged of the gross
steeped in poetry
great tales in fullness
majestic whole

Did Tolkien get there?
And did PJ follow him there?
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Old 06-20-2004, 11:06 AM   #11
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Boots

Well, for the record I will say that Tolkien did get there. (I think it would be kind of pointless in discussing this topic if we doubt that Tolkien got there at all.)

And I think that, by and large, Jackson 'got' there too, or thereabouts at least. Certainly in comparison with basically every other big Hollywood-style film Jackson's characters were noble and admirable (excepting Denethor). Its just that we constantly compare Jackson with Tolkien on this forum (and not other film directors) and that is why he gets so much criticism.
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Old 06-20-2004, 02:39 PM   #12
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The movies took themselves less seriously and I liked that. Though in that sense, I thought that the Lothlorien chapters were not given their due. But that's, like, just my opinion, man.
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Old 06-20-2004, 03:53 PM   #13
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I know I've said this before, but I felt that Rohan and specifically Theoden were shortchanged by PJ. Once he had been healed by Gandalf, Tolkien's Theoden was noble and vigorous. Bernard Hill stayed sullen, quoting many of the lines that Tolkien's Theoden came out with *before* the healing.
The relationship between Rohan and Gondor in the book was I felt very noble, and I didn't like the way it was drawn into question in the movie.

Having said all that, the arrival of Rohan at the battle of the Pelennor Fields was still the best example in the entire movie trilogy of the "high" I think Mark 12_30 is talking about.
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Old 06-20-2004, 04:00 PM   #14
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The heroic Legolas scenes, more than anything, got under my skin. But that is only a small bit, and easy to ignore when looking at the big picture.

What I loved very much was the time put into every detail of the societies. From Hobbiton to Lothlorien to Mordor, and everything in between, the setting was magnificent and the costumes were lovely.

Also, I don't think anyone was miscast in any way. All the actors played thier parts to the best of thier abilities. None were fake, or strained in thier lines. So despite the fact that some of the characters were different, they were all played well.

I also must mention the music. The music was always perfect, matching to the feeling of the scene.

~and thus my thoughts cease~

(For now at least )
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Old 06-21-2004, 08:04 AM   #15
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Yes Saraphim, I too think that the music was very 'high' and it would have been truly gruesome had they tried to incorporate pop music into them.
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Old 06-24-2004, 10:57 AM   #16
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White Tree Music

I also think the music was very "high." At some points it becomes so beautiful and emotional that it makes me cry, or feel like I could burst (in a good way ) It was absolutely perfect.
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Old 06-24-2004, 01:50 PM   #17
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I think that in terms of settings, costumes, and scores, PJ did an excellent job. The only thing that bothered me was how Caras Galadhon was not golden; it was more of a bluish-silver colour. But I'm not going to get started on that.

The one thing that bothered me was some of the characters. Yes, the "Let's hunt some orc" line didn't really float my oyster, but let's leave sleeping dogs lie. The one character I think PJ really buggered up was Arwen. In the book, the relationship between Aragorn and Arwen was beautifully simple, only explaining it more thoroughly in the Appendices. In the movies, PJ decided to stick Arwen in every scene he could. Let's not mention the infamous Helm's Deep fiasco. The constant appearance of Arwen in the movies made the relationship cheap and annoying.

The 'high' that mark12_30 was talking about did (I think) appear in some moments of the movies. The arrival of the Rohirrim was a good example, like Lalaith said. I think that the line of Gondorian soldiers galloping towards Osgiliath is another good scene that portrays the 'high'.
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Old 06-24-2004, 02:17 PM   #18
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Websters 1913 online

Webster's 1913 Dictionary

http://www.webster-dictionary.org/

It isn't Oxford, unfortunately, but I did find a Websters 1913 online. Tolkien was in college at that point. I think it sheds some light on his vocabulary choices.

Consider these exerpts:

cosmogonic - pertaining to the branch of astronomy dealing with the origin and history and structure and dynamics of the universe; "cosmologic science"; "cosmological redshift"; "cosmogonic theories of the origin of the universe"
Synonyms: cosmogenic, cosmogenical, cosmogonical, cosmologic, cosmological

Splen“dor
n. 1. Great brightness; brilliant luster; brilliancy; as, the splendor ot the sun.
2. Magnifience; pomp; parade; as, the splendor of equipage, ceremonies, processions, and the like.
3. Brilliancy; glory; as, the splendor of a victory.

vast:
1. Waste; desert; desolate; lonely.
The empty, vast, and wandering air. - Shak.
2. Of great extent; very spacious or large; also, huge in bulk; immense; enormous; as, the vast ocean; vast mountains; the vast empire of Russia.
Through the vast and boundless deep. - Milton.
3. Very great in numbers, quantity, or amount; as, a vast army; a vast sum of money.
4. Very great in force; mighty; as, vast labor.
5. Very great in importance; as, a subject of vast concern.

high:
1. Elevated above any starting point of measurement, as a line, or surface; having altitude; lifted up; raised or extended in the direction of the zenith; lofty; tall; as, a high mountain, tower, tree; the sun is high.
2. Regarded as raised up or elevated; distinguished; remarkable; conspicuous; superior; - used indefinitely or relatively, and often in figurative senses, which are understood from the connection
3. Elevated in character or quality, whether moral or intellectual; preėminent; honorable; as, high aims, or motives.


No“ble
a. 1. Possessing eminence, elevation, dignity, etc.; above whatever is low, mean, degrading, or dishonorable; magnanimous; as, a noble nature or action; a noble heart.
Statues, with winding ivy crowned, belong
To nobler poets for a nobler song. - Dryden.
2. Grand; stately; magnificent; splendid; as, a noble edifice.


Purged of the gross:

v. t. 1. To cleanse, clear, or purify by separating and carrying off whatever is impure, heterogeneous, foreign, or superfluous.
[imp. & p. p. Purged ; p. pr. & vb. n. Purging .]
...
5. To clear from guilt, or from moral or ceremonial defilement; as, to purge one of guilt or crime.
When that he hath purged you from sin. - Chaucer.
Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean.

gross - twelve dozen. Synonyms: 144. (Number of Hobbits invited to hear Bilbo's speech.)

More common definitions:
1. Great; large...
2. Coarse; rough; not fine or delicate.
3. Not easily aroused or excited; not sensitive in perception or feeling; dull; witless.
Tell her of things that no gross ear can hear. - Milton.
4. Expressing, or originating in, animal or sensual appetites; hence, coarse, vulgar, low, obscene, or impure.
The terms which are delicate in one age become gross in the next. - Macaulay.
5. Disgusting; repulsive; highly offensive; as, a gross remark.
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Old 06-25-2004, 04:00 AM   #19
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Mark, you're using an american dictionary to describe tolkien's words? JRR would turn in his grave!!!!!
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Old 06-25-2004, 06:36 AM   #20
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Online Oxford costs money to join.

The 1913 Webster definitions have the right flavor, as I understand them. If someone who has an early-20th-century Oxford would like to check my definitions I'd be most pleased. I *may* have access to one in a particular bible software package-- not sure-- but I have to find time to install it! For today Websters will have to do...
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Old 06-26-2004, 01:16 AM   #21
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Well I just have to bring this up (I know this has been discussed before). In my opinion I personally think that Tolkien would have gone crazy over the entire "Faramir taking Frodo and Sam to Osgilith" scene. It is just that I thought (as many others did also) this part went terribily against the spirit of the book, the characters (it very much made Faramir for me much less of an honorable person, because he did something I would never, ever expect the book Faramir ever to do), and it had some terrible lines to boot!

I also believe that Tolkien would have disliked the length of many of the battle scenes just because they took away from the language, and the actual communication of the characters in the book. In addition the battles also allowed the addition of much of the modern language in the films (quotes in posts above).

But Jackson did a wonderful job, and probably the best of jobs expected
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Old 06-26-2004, 02:28 AM   #22
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If we think about this..
Perhaps Tolkien would've been happy to see an adapation of his books not directed by Ralph Bakishi, but I can tell that, while he would not have been as upset as the estate is, it seems highly unlikely that he would regard the movies highly, if, indeed he ever saw them at all.
let's remember that, if Tolkien were still alive to see the movies, he would've been over one hundred years old, and perhaps not be able, physicly, to sit through them. Plus, there's the thought of how he'd be mangaging mentaly; no doubt that he'd still be sad, however much, but the loss of his wife Edith.
Besides, he wasn't one for the modern conviences; after all, he's the creator of a world with almost no recognizable technology, save a windmill in the Shire and the crude seige machinery of the orcs. Even if he was well and able enough, i think he'd just refuse to go. Or perhaps not; he'd be upset with a majority of FOTR, that's for sure. It definetly suffered the worst adapatation out of all three parts, but I'm not him, so I don't know his reaction.

Sorry if that seems to be taking the question too literally; but it does answer the question, right?
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Old 06-28-2004, 08:05 PM   #23
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Gorwingel wrote:
Quote:
this part went terribily against the spirit of the book, the characters (it very much made Faramir for me much less of an honorable person, because he did something I would never, ever expect the book Faramir ever to do), and it had some terrible lines to boot!
Interesting. (And I agree, it annoys me too.)

Why is it so annoying?

Why did he develop Faramir as such an extremely honorable person, I wonder? Is Faramir a caricature of honor, or are there really human beings like that?
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Old 06-29-2004, 03:33 AM   #24
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Faramir is a man of his WORD. He did not know it was the Ring of Power when he stated he would not pick it up if it were lying on the road. Once he realised what it was, he felt bound to his word, and let Frodo go.
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Old 06-29-2004, 06:57 AM   #25
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[QUOTE=PaleStar]If we think about this..
Perhaps Tolkien would've been happy to see an adapation of his books not directed by Ralph Bakishi, but I can tell that, while he would not have been as upset as the estate is, it seems highly unlikely that he would regard the movies highly, if, indeed he ever saw them at all....
Besides, he wasn't one for the modern conviences; after all, he's the creator of a world with almost no recognizable technology, save a windmill in the Shire and the crude seige machinery of the orcs. ...
Or perhaps not; he'd be upset with a majority of FOTR, that's for sure. It definetly suffered the worst adapatation out of all three parts, but I'm not him, so I don't know his reaction.
QUOTE]

Palestar, I've been thinking about your post for a bit and you 've come up with some interesting points. Aside from his being disinclined to sit in a movie theater for hours on end, do you think he would have been pleased with the way that the movies told the story, and whether the movies fulfilled his story-ideals and story-hopes in the sense that his books did?
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Old 06-29-2004, 08:38 AM   #26
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White-Hand

Quote:
... do you think he would have been pleased with the way that the movies told the story, and whether the movies fulfilled his story-ideals and story-hopes in the sense that his books did?
Related link:

Do you think Tolkien would be insulted by the LOTR movies?
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Old 06-29-2004, 01:40 PM   #27
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Thanks for the link, Saucie.

When I say "do you think he would have been pleased" with the movies, what I am getting at is, would Tolkien find that the movies succeeded in portraying Middle-Earth as:

Quote:
...the fair elusive beauty that some call Celtic .....'high', purged of the gross...steeped in poetry... great tales in fullness... majestic....
...etc?
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Old 06-30-2004, 02:04 PM   #28
Nurumaiel
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Shield Faramir: high, purged of the gross

Helen encouraged me to jump in and join the discussion, and I'm doing so now that I have a spare moment. I'd like to briefly add my view on the topic of FARAMIR.

Back when TTT came out, I was one of those who believed Faramir could have been better but thought he was still okay. I've changed my view since then, because of two things I will just mention so as not to bore you with lengthy, off-topic details: an RPG character called Liornung and the Chapter-by-Chapter discussion, which brought recollections of hearing LotR for the first time as a very small child and pondering why I was so attracted to him and thought him one of the best characters in the entire book.

I shan't go so far as to say his character was totally butchered, for it seems to me he did retain at least some honor and nobility, but there is surely a world of difference between movie Faramir and book Faramir.

Faramir in the book has always been to me high and purged of the gross. I defined him as the following: noble, honorable, and simple.

Noble because of what he was. His actions and manner of speech towards Frodo and Sam and others he came in contact with were noble and kingly. Not in the sense of superiority, that is that he was of noble birth and made others realize it and make themselves feel low. From the dictionary: "Having or showing qualities of high moral character, such as courage, generosity, or honor: a noble spirit." That seems to describe Faramir rather well.

Honorable because, as Essex pointed out, he was a man of his word. When he said he would do or would not do something, he kept his word. He was highly moral and I think has earned respect from readers for this. He possessed honorable traits, such as keeping his word.

Simple is a word often used for one who is 'stupid,' but I use it in a different meaning here. Faramir was not concerned with gaining high ranks and having all that would give him luxury and power. This is why he didn't take the Ring, I think. He was tempted by it, but he did not care perhaps for the things it offered; power, fame, etc. One of the definitions dictionary.com provides is "humble or lowly in condition or rank," but simple can also be used to mean that one is not obsessed in gaining higher rank and power. Another definition it gives is 'not guileful or deceitful; sincere.' Again, sounds like Faramir. The same site defines 'simplicity as "Absence of luxury or showiness; plainness." The same thing can apply here, as well: simplicity as the lack of desire to have luxury and to be showy. Helen, perhaps we should add 'Simplicity' to our list?

Sam told Faramir that he had shown his quality; the very finest. I agree with Sam. Yet these words cannot ring true in regards to the movie Faramir.
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