high, purged of the gross: the movies

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I think Tolkien would have been horrified with the infamous 'Denethor-eats' scene. The opposite of high.

[Saraphim]

Essex,

"Let's hunt some orc" is an innacuracy because no one in Tolkien's Middle-Earth spoke like that. Not because it is different from the book. It is simply too modern. Sorry, I should have been more clear.

[mark12_30]

Added parts that failed, for me:

After the tumble out of Farmer Maggot's field and into the road, Pippin's "Ooh, that was close."

Gimli's belch at Rohan.

And I agree with Essex about Denethor's drooling....

Gandalf whacking Pippin as Pippin offered fealty to Denethor. Not honorable.

Gandalf whacking Denethor (although in the movie theater I was relieved to see it, Tolkien would not have approved.)

Gandalf and Shadowfax riding Denethor onto the pyre. Again, not heroic at all.

Some parts that suceeded (hugely):

"I would have followed you: my brother, my captain, my king."

Movie-Theoden's gradual increase in devotion to Aragorn as Aragorn earned his respect. Much as I grieved the whole dparture from the books in TTT, this was superbly done. Very noble, very uplifting. I think (considered as a story separate from his) that Tolkien would have approved the character development of Movie-Theoden.

[Essex]

Saraphim "Let's hunt some orc" would be conceived as modern. But (and I'm not being petty) as I state in my post, he says "Let us hunt some orc". I've listened to this phrase in the film umpteen times, and this is what I believe Aragorn is saying. Let us is not a modern use of language, but obviosuly Let's, an abbriviated version, is....

I've done a quick search of the term "Let us" just in the fellowship of the ring book, and it appears 51 times!!!!!!!!!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I think that, if you want to hear 'let us' then you will hear it, and if you want to hear 'let's' then you will hear it. The two are too similar to really distinguish. All you can do is ask Big Vigs himself to find out what he said.

I think Sam-punches-Gollum should be added to the list.

[mark12_30]

Eomer, there's one I had not thought of. Interesting. I'll be on the lookout for that next time I read through! Certainly Sam had it out for Smeagol, but did he ever indulge it-- *against his master's wishes*? What would Tolkien have thought of the movie version of Sam and Smeagol...?

Very interesting food for thought.

In terms of "Let's" versus "Let us", I don't think Tolkien would have lost a lot of sleep over that one, and we can move on.

I think there are other items Tolkien would have lost a *lot* more sleep over; epic-level things; mythic-level things. Things involving honor and purity and nobility... Character traits. What think you?

Eomer's point-- Sam and Smeagol-- involves character, and I do think it's key. Let's go back to his description of his heroic, epic mythology:

connected legend
large and cosmogonic
romantic fairy-story
splendour
vast
cool and clear
fair elusive beauty
'high', purged of the gross
steeped in poetry
great tales in fullness
majestic whole

Did Tolkien get there?
And did PJ follow him there?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Well, for the record I will say that Tolkien did get there. (I think it would be kind of pointless in discussing this topic if we doubt that Tolkien got there at all.)

And I think that, by and large, Jackson 'got' there too, or thereabouts at least. Certainly in comparison with basically every other big Hollywood-style film Jackson's characters were noble and admirable (excepting Denethor). Its just that we constantly compare Jackson with Tolkien on this forum (and not other film directors) and that is why he gets so much criticism.