Melkor and Sauron's goal - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Boromir88 · 06-19-2004, 11:31 PM

First, I don't know enough about Balrogs and Dragons to talk about how they are the way they are, so that question I can't answer. As for your first question about why people get in their minds to "rule" the world?

I think first of all, Melkor and Sauron wanting to rule the "world" was Tolkien mixing in his concept about dictators. Tolkien was a man who hated industrialization, he was more of a nature person, and I think Melkor and Sauron could represent possible Satan (since he was a religious man) or some of the ruthless dictators of WW1, who wanted to rule the world. Now on to why?

We may very well never know the why, but if you ask me they get these ideas in their heads from their peers they look up to and from general society. You always here about corrupt politicians, well who raised these people? Where have they been growing up at? Society. They didn't just fall from the sky. I also think a lot depends upon your childhood, your parents, and your peers. Sauron was a servant of Morgoth, so you might tell where he got some of his ideas from. And for the explanation for Morgoth you can simply say some people just want power, they aren't happy until they rule everything and control everything. Some of the most cruel, successful, wicked dictators, like Hitler and Stalin, have also been known to have many mental illnesses. For example like ADD and paranoia, the constant fear that someone will betray them and take all their power.

06-20-2004, 12:27 AM

Hello shadow_lady,

Tolkien also hated governments. His idea of how things should run are shown in The Lord of the Rings through the Hobbits and the Shire.

You don't just see this 'power' crazy stuff when people want to take over the world, it is in families, friendships etc., Why ? I don't really know. It could be the fear element, it could be not being satisfied with what they have. It could actually be an endless list of things.

From Tolkien's point of view it was more than likely the God and Devil story from the bible. The Devil gets cast out of heaven and then proceeds to try and dominate God's creation, or win it away from him/her.

We see this type of stuff going on today, we saw it 20 years ago and we will no doubt see it in the future. Someone always wants to be top dog, whether a single person in a family or a country in the world.

Bombadil · 06-20-2004, 10:00 AM

Morgoth and Sauron were victims of their own envy in my opinion. Melkor's reason for destroying his fellow Valar's creations was because of that envy. I believe this envy slowly turned to hate, and fed his hirst for power. It's only fitting that the Vala with the most power was the one to fall - like a Lucifer representation in a way. This goes back to the well-known theme of power corrupting. Melkor believed he had some right to the throne of Arda, which perverted him to the point of anger and jealousy.

For Sauron I would just say that he was victim to the deception of Melkor. I believe Melkor created the emotions of hatred, fear and envy, and passed it on to his servants.

Saraphim · 06-20-2004, 06:12 PM

Morgoth was recorded as the most powerful of the Valar, at least at the beginning of the Silmarillion.

Power begs for corruption. It went to Morgoth's head and created within him the desire to be even more powerful. This need for strength is sated somewhat by dominating others, and that is exactly what Morgoth did, by corrupting the elves and creating his own little minions to do his bidding.

After that, it's only natural that he would want to dominate everyone else as well.

As for Sauron, well, his name before he joined Morgoth was Thu, and if I had that name, I'd be evil too.

(*ba-doom-ching!*)

Anyway...

He most likely wasn't a very important little Maia, and wanted some recognition. So, he basically followed Morgoth's example.

Legolas · 06-21-2004, 08:23 AM

Desire to be the Creator.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 06-21-2004, 02:31 PM

Which, although it is a natural desire in Tolkien's opinion, both of these characters take to extremes. Both are motivated by pride and a lust to take everything to themselves. Sauron is more of a possessor, but Morgoth, discovering that he can never rival the creations of Eru, turns to destruction and perversion. In the end he has no real goal other than to torture, warp and destroy the work of all those who hold Eru as the ultimate authority. Sauron resents Eru much less, but allows his pride and will to dominate to take complete control of his actions. In both cases, the end is eventually lost in the chaos of the means.

Lush · 06-23-2004, 11:27 PM

Oh, I personally always thought that Melkor read too much Marquis de Sade at an impressionable age.

Oh wait you want a serious answer.

A growing bitterness and greed that translate into a selfish desire for domination through violence. No sense of moderation. And de Sade.

06-19-2004, 11:31 PM	#1
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	A tolkien concept. First, I don't know enough about Balrogs and Dragons to talk about how they are the way they are, so that question I can't answer. As for your first question about why people get in their minds to "rule" the world? I think first of all, Melkor and Sauron wanting to rule the "world" was Tolkien mixing in his concept about dictators. Tolkien was a man who hated industrialization, he was more of a nature person, and I think Melkor and Sauron could represent possible Satan (since he was a religious man) or some of the ruthless dictators of WW1, who wanted to rule the world. Now on to why? We may very well never know the why, but if you ask me they get these ideas in their heads from their peers they look up to and from general society. You always here about corrupt politicians, well who raised these people? Where have they been growing up at? Society. They didn't just fall from the sky. I also think a lot depends upon your childhood, your parents, and your peers. Sauron was a servant of Morgoth, so you might tell where he got some of his ideas from. And for the explanation for Morgoth you can simply say some people just want power, they aren't happy until they rule everything and control everything. Some of the most cruel, successful, wicked dictators, like Hitler and Stalin, have also been known to have many mental illnesses. For example like ADD and paranoia, the constant fear that someone will betray them and take all their power.

06-20-2004, 10:00 AM	#3
Bombadil Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Old Forest Posts: 488	One word- Jealousy. Morgoth and Sauron were victims of their own envy in my opinion. Melkor's reason for destroying his fellow Valar's creations was because of that envy. I believe this envy slowly turned to hate, and fed his hirst for power. It's only fitting that the Vala with the most power was the one to fall - like a Lucifer representation in a way. This goes back to the well-known theme of power corrupting. Melkor believed he had some right to the throne of Arda, which perverted him to the point of anger and jealousy. For Sauron I would just say that he was victim to the deception of Melkor. I believe Melkor created the emotions of hatred, fear and envy, and passed it on to his servants. __________________ "'Eldest, that's what I am... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'"

06-20-2004, 06:12 PM	#4
Saraphim Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The other side of freezing. Posts: 404	Morgoth was recorded as the most powerful of the Valar, at least at the beginning of the Silmarillion. Power begs for corruption. It went to Morgoth's head and created within him the desire to be even more powerful. This need for strength is sated somewhat by dominating others, and that is exactly what Morgoth did, by corrupting the elves and creating his own little minions to do his bidding. After that, it's only natural that he would want to dominate everyone else as well. As for Sauron, well, his name before he joined Morgoth was Thu, and if I had that name, I'd be evil too. (ba-doom-ching!) Anyway... He most likely wasn't a very important little Maia, and wanted some recognition. So, he basically followed Morgoth's example. __________________ I drink Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters! ~ Always remember: pillage BEFORE you burn.

06-21-2004, 08:23 AM	#5
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Desire to be the Creator. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

06-21-2004, 02:31 PM	#6
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Pride, greed, hubris Which, although it is a natural desire in Tolkien's opinion, both of these characters take to extremes. Both are motivated by pride and a lust to take everything to themselves. Sauron is more of a possessor, but Morgoth, discovering that he can never rival the creations of Eru, turns to destruction and perversion. In the end he has no real goal other than to torture, warp and destroy the work of all those who hold Eru as the ultimate authority. Sauron resents Eru much less, but allows his pride and will to dominate to take complete control of his actions. In both cases, the end is eventually lost in the chaos of the means. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne? Last edited by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh; 06-24-2004 at 07:14 AM.

06-20-2004, 12:27 AM	#2
Arkenstone Guest Posts: n/a	Hello shadow_lady, Tolkien also hated governments. His idea of how things should run are shown in The Lord of the Rings through the Hobbits and the Shire. You don't just see this 'power' crazy stuff when people want to take over the world, it is in families, friendships etc., Why ? I don't really know. It could be the fear element, it could be not being satisfied with what they have. It could actually be an endless list of things. From Tolkien's point of view it was more than likely the God and Devil story from the bible. The Devil gets cast out of heaven and then proceeds to try and dominate God's creation, or win it away from him/her. We see this type of stuff going on today, we saw it 20 years ago and we will no doubt see it in the future. Someone always wants to be top dog, whether a single person in a family or a country in the world.

06-23-2004, 11:27 PM	#7
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	Oh, I personally always thought that Melkor read too much Marquis de Sade at an impressionable age. Oh wait you want a serious answer. A growing bitterness and greed that translate into a selfish desire for domination through violence. No sense of moderation. And de Sade. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~