The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-19-2004, 11:31 PM   #1
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,521
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
1420! A tolkien concept.

First, I don't know enough about Balrogs and Dragons to talk about how they are the way they are, so that question I can't answer. As for your first question about why people get in their minds to "rule" the world?

I think first of all, Melkor and Sauron wanting to rule the "world" was Tolkien mixing in his concept about dictators. Tolkien was a man who hated industrialization, he was more of a nature person, and I think Melkor and Sauron could represent possible Satan (since he was a religious man) or some of the ruthless dictators of WW1, who wanted to rule the world. Now on to why?

We may very well never know the why, but if you ask me they get these ideas in their heads from their peers they look up to and from general society. You always here about corrupt politicians, well who raised these people? Where have they been growing up at? Society. They didn't just fall from the sky. I also think a lot depends upon your childhood, your parents, and your peers. Sauron was a servant of Morgoth, so you might tell where he got some of his ideas from. And for the explanation for Morgoth you can simply say some people just want power, they aren't happy until they rule everything and control everything. Some of the most cruel, successful, wicked dictators, like Hitler and Stalin, have also been known to have many mental illnesses. For example like ADD and paranoia, the constant fear that someone will betray them and take all their power.
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2004, 12:27 AM   #2
Arkenstone
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
White Tree

Hello shadow_lady,

Tolkien also hated governments. His idea of how things should run are shown in The Lord of the Rings through the Hobbits and the Shire.

You don't just see this 'power' crazy stuff when people want to take over the world, it is in families, friendships etc., Why ? I don't really know. It could be the fear element, it could be not being satisfied with what they have. It could actually be an endless list of things.

From Tolkien's point of view it was more than likely the God and Devil story from the bible. The Devil gets cast out of heaven and then proceeds to try and dominate God's creation, or win it away from him/her.

We see this type of stuff going on today, we saw it 20 years ago and we will no doubt see it in the future. Someone always wants to be top dog, whether a single person in a family or a country in the world.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2004, 10:00 AM   #3
Bombadil
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Bombadil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Old Forest
Posts: 488
Bombadil has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Bombadil
Boots One word- Jealousy.

Morgoth and Sauron were victims of their own envy in my opinion. Melkor's reason for destroying his fellow Valar's creations was because of that envy. I believe this envy slowly turned to hate, and fed his hirst for power. It's only fitting that the Vala with the most power was the one to fall - like a Lucifer representation in a way. This goes back to the well-known theme of power corrupting. Melkor believed he had some right to the throne of Arda, which perverted him to the point of anger and jealousy.

For Sauron I would just say that he was victim to the deception of Melkor. I believe Melkor created the emotions of hatred, fear and envy, and passed it on to his servants.
__________________
"'Eldest, that's what I am... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'"
Bombadil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2004, 06:12 PM   #4
Saraphim
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Saraphim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The other side of freezing.
Posts: 404
Saraphim has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Saraphim
The Eye

Morgoth was recorded as the most powerful of the Valar, at least at the beginning of the Silmarillion.

Power begs for corruption. It went to Morgoth's head and created within him the desire to be even more powerful. This need for strength is sated somewhat by dominating others, and that is exactly what Morgoth did, by corrupting the elves and creating his own little minions to do his bidding.

After that, it's only natural that he would want to dominate everyone else as well.

As for Sauron, well, his name before he joined Morgoth was Thu, and if I had that name, I'd be evil too. (*ba-doom-ching!*)

Anyway...

He most likely wasn't a very important little Maia, and wanted some recognition. So, he basically followed Morgoth's example.
__________________
I drink Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters!
~
Always remember: pillage BEFORE you burn.
Saraphim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2004, 08:23 AM   #5
Legolas
A Northern Soul
 
Legolas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
Legolas has just left Hobbiton.
Desire to be the Creator.
__________________
...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.
Legolas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2004, 02:31 PM   #6
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh
Spectre of Decay
 
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bar-en-Danwedh
Posts: 2,178
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Squatter of Amon Rûdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Send a message via AIM to The Squatter of Amon Rûdh
Pipe Pride, greed, hubris

Which, although it is a natural desire in Tolkien's opinion, both of these characters take to extremes. Both are motivated by pride and a lust to take everything to themselves. Sauron is more of a possessor, but Morgoth, discovering that he can never rival the creations of Eru, turns to destruction and perversion. In the end he has no real goal other than to torture, warp and destroy the work of all those who hold Eru as the ultimate authority. Sauron resents Eru much less, but allows his pride and will to dominate to take complete control of his actions. In both cases, the end is eventually lost in the chaos of the means.
__________________
Man kenuva métim' andúne?

Last edited by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh; 06-24-2004 at 07:14 AM.
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2004, 11:27 PM   #7
Lush
Fair and Cold
 
Lush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the big onion
Posts: 1,770
Lush is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Send a message via ICQ to Lush Send a message via AIM to Lush Send a message via Yahoo to Lush
Oh, I personally always thought that Melkor read too much Marquis de Sade at an impressionable age.

Oh wait you want a serious answer.

A growing bitterness and greed that translate into a selfish desire for domination through violence. No sense of moderation. And de Sade.
__________________
~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~
Lush is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:31 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.