Numenor and America

[Gorwingel]

I agree with much you have said. But then I guess this is about the same as comparing the wars of LOTR to the 1st and 2nd world wars. I think this just goes along with Tolkien's belief system, where the loss of faith, obsession with money and power, and a loss morality always brings bad things to people (Isn't this talked a little about in the Bible?). As you can see I am not a religious scholar in any way, shape or form, and I am probably the worst person in the world to contribute to this discussion. I believe he was intentionally including a moral lesson in the story, but then I also believe that he wasn't intentionally trying to create a prophecy for America, or the world.

[Firefoot]

Much of the symbolism I see in the Akallabeth applies not only to America, but to humanity itself.

In that, I think you hit the nail on the head. It is the way people are, and that is probably what Tolkien was able to see. Perhaps you can see it in America because you are American (as I am, myself), but I would imagine that, given the opportunity to be that way, people in most any country would behave in much the same way. Not all people, but many.

[Bêthberry]

Oh, my, Bombadil, I have a new way of thinking about Mount Rushmore now.

[Imladris]

Oddly, Bombadil , after reading your post, I did not think of Americans (though I full heartedly agree with what you said and how you applied the passages to them) but of the Greeks. I thought of Mount Olympus, of their humanistic values, of their desires (particularly the Romish desire) for pleasure.

But, as everyone else has been saying, Tolkien had a firm grasp of human nature and their tendancy to fall. What he wrote could probably be compared to every culture on this world.

[Mithalwen]

I think, from what I have read in HoME and elsewhere that Numenor was very much inspired by Atlantis. I am sure I read somewhere that in a very approximate fashion the geography of Middle Earth represented an early version of Europe with the Shire as England, Rohan as the germanic lands and Gondor as Italy, the last stronghold of an ancient empire..... the new lands formed in the west after the changing of the world the "New World " of America......

I guess you can apply the story and it is interesting to do this kind of thing ..... but given his claim to detest allegory (which perhaps doesn't entirely stand up to analysis ) I doubt it was his intention.....but of course intentionally or not a writer is likely to give away a lot of his worldview especially when he writes on such a scale - for example it is possible to find an awful lot of Catholicism seeping through - and if a Brit may dare to say so, there is a lot about America that you can imagine the Prof not being to keen on..........(although he was almost certainly NOT the elderly British academic of urban myth who, when visiting the States, replied to the umpteenth person who told him to "Have a nice day" with "I've made other plans".

However I have to disagree about the loss of faith specific to America - I heard about a report last week that alone of the countries of the fully developed world, the US has increasing numbers of people claiming to adhere to a religious faith. In the UK I think only 10% regularly attend church and soon there will be more devout Muslims than Christians - if we haven't reached that point already..... In the developed world suffering was more inclined to make people lose faith (a category I happen to fall into): in the developing world they found the reverse was true.

Generally I think he would have hated the progress of the Sarumans of the world and their "minds of metal and wheels "...... the pragmatism of global industry ....... ........ And in this modern worlds the Sarumans are more dangerous than Saurons.... easier to unite against an obvious monster .... the sweet talkers whose policies are devoid of any principle other than backing the winning side are trickier..... else why would anyone end up fighting a war against a someone they supported and armed a couple of decades ago...... pipeweed may not be a significant commodity anymore but other things pass through pipes ....or pipelines.......

But I have strayed into areas that have previously caused me to receive unwarranted levels of abuse when I expressed my views on them - so maybe I should leave it there...

And I am a enough of a wooly minded liberal to hope that American BD'ers enjoy their Independence Day ..... as long as they aren't the American who (and I swear this is true) asked this Brit how we celebrate the 4th of July in England......

[Saraphim]

I do see similarities between America and Numenor. And, I do forsee America (proverbally or literally) sinking into the sea because of the blind stupidity of its leaders.

But to continue, I find that what has been said before on this thread to hold true. That Tolkien detested allegory and would have never conciously compared the U.S. with Numenor. But, however, we have to look at unconcious allegory. If Tolkien was writing the Akallabeth during the 1960's, there is the Vietnam War to be looking at in comparison of Ar-Pharazon's invasion on Valinor.

I only guess, please refrain from flaming me with combusted trout.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

The Akallabêth existed long before the 1960s, I'm afraid. Tolkien was working on it before he started to write The Lord of the Rings.

As has already been mentioned on this thread, the new lands to the West (the Americas - in his fiction literally the New World) came into existence when Númenor was destroyed and the Undying Lands were separated from the rest of the world. Tolkien made explicit comparisons with the ancient Egyptians and with Atlantis, but nowhere in his writings is there any hint that he intended to refer to America. To be quite honest, I doubt that America mattered enough to Tolkien for it to feature largely in his thinking.

However, Tolkien's story of Númenor is certainly applicable to most advanced cultures. It applies to the Egyptian Old Kingdom, to ancient Greece, to Rome, to the British empire and to modern America: people do have a tendency to abandon their spiritual principles, to seek to dominate other people, to become obsessed with longevity, luxury and the accumulation of wealth. Tolkien demonstrates with his Atlantis legend that even the best of Men are still vulnerable to failure and the fall into evil, and that those who are given the greatest gifts are often those who fall the furthest. To apply this to any one society is to deny its universal significance and to reduce its power. It is also, in my opinion, to misinterpret both the author's intentions and his mode of thinking to a quite astounding degree.

[Bombadil]

Good points Squatter, but I'm not trying to say he directly symbolized America:

But rather I'd say he wrote a story possibly inspired by the tale of Atlantis that, which does go hand in hand with his style of writing, could be applied to American culture.

I'm just having some fun applying this story to my culture, for it is the culture (or non-culture) I know best.