The Landing of Elendil - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

kboleen · 07-05-2004, 11:13 AM

Elendil "founded" the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor, he didn't necessarily build them into the powerhouses they were at the peak. Time did that. His heirs ruled for 2000 years after his and Isildur's death before the last one was killed in battle and the the Stewards took power.

Osse · 07-07-2004, 03:36 AM

On the contrary kboleen, it is apparent from the timelines of the period that the physical strength of the kingdoms was begun as soon as they were founded... this being both the population and infrastrucute. This we can discover from two things - the fortresses / cities of Minas Ithil and Isengard were both created the year after the ships landed. Not only would this have taken large amounts of materials, but would have taken a far more important commodity - man power.

Right from the outset the population grew. However kboleen, I do see your point, however, Tolkien clearly states that after the fall of Elendil, the splendour and strength of the kingdoms decreased. This can either be taken in terms of integrity, or physical might. I always took the rule of Elendil to be the pinacle of the realms' evolution, and that though the borders may have been spread, both the man power and integrity of those dwelling in the realms would never match that of the time of Elendil. Remember that almost all the male folk of the entire Numenorean race was wiped out in the Last Alliance.

However, i see your point, and perhaps i was always under a false assumption. Though the realms were developed for the next 2000 odd years, i never deemed them anywhere near the brief splendour that was apparantly experienced in the first 200 odd years. Statements of the time always compare the shortcomings of the realms in comparison to those early days.

Voralphion · 07-09-2004, 02:41 AM

I am not sure about the situation in Arnor, but there were already many numenoreans living in the area that became gondor at the downfall of numenor.

Quote:

Long before in the days of their power the mariners of Numenor established a haven and strong places about the mouths of the Anduin, in despite of Sauron in the Black Land that lay nigh upon the east. In later days to this haven came only the Faithful of Numenor, and many therfore of the folk of the coastlands in that region were in whole or part akin to the Elf-Friends and the people of Elendil, and they welcomed his sons.

Of The Rings of Power and The Third Age

The ships of Isildur and Anarion didn't carry all the people of Gondor, there were many there already who welcomed Elendil's sons as their kings. This was probably the same for Arnor, with some of the Faithful who had previously left Numenor living in the north near Gil Galad.
Elendil and his sons didn't completely establish new realms, they joined and took the rule of existing realms.

Osse · 07-09-2004, 06:12 PM

Thank you for supplying that quote! My copy of the Silm. is somewhere buried under many boxes in a garage many miles from here.

This seems to have cleared up my issues with this topic. Thank you to all who contributed to this thread!

Regards,
Osse

Nirvana II · 07-12-2004, 10:50 PM

isnt it possible that the ships were incredibly large?????

Osse · 07-13-2004, 05:12 AM

It is not inconceivable! Imagine: Thousands of trees felled, linen in every room, and ensuites in the upper deck. Enjoy deck games and open air - Join an Elendil Cruise today!!

symestreem · 07-13-2004, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nirvana II

isnt it possible that the ships were incredibly large?????

They were extremely large. How big were you thinking?

Mithalwen · 07-13-2004, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by symestreem

They were extremely large. How big were you thinking?

I doubt the ensuites were necessary - everyone in Middle Earth seems teflon coated - the goodies anyway - and noone ever needed the loo...... sorry..... I have an unhealthy interest in elvish physiology ....

On a more serious level I an reading this book on early chinese exploration and they had really massive ships ...... unbelievably huge .... made the "Endeavour" look like something you'd float ona pond.........

Nirvana II · 07-13-2004, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by symestreem

They were extremely large. How big were you thinking?

big enough to hold the basis of an entire civilization..or just enough people to be able to rebuild a kingdom...remember there were only 9 ships...what is it with the number 9 in Middle Earth?

07-07-2004, 03:36 AM	#2
Osse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours. Posts: 274	On the contrary kboleen, it is apparent from the timelines of the period that the physical strength of the kingdoms was begun as soon as they were founded... this being both the population and infrastrucute. This we can discover from two things - the fortresses / cities of Minas Ithil and Isengard were both created the year after the ships landed. Not only would this have taken large amounts of materials, but would have taken a far more important commodity - man power. Right from the outset the population grew. However kboleen, I do see your point, however, Tolkien clearly states that after the fall of Elendil, the splendour and strength of the kingdoms decreased. This can either be taken in terms of integrity, or physical might. I always took the rule of Elendil to be the pinacle of the realms' evolution, and that though the borders may have been spread, both the man power and integrity of those dwelling in the realms would never match that of the time of Elendil. Remember that almost all the male folk of the entire Numenorean race was wiped out in the Last Alliance. However, i see your point, and perhaps i was always under a false assumption. Though the realms were developed for the next 2000 odd years, i never deemed them anywhere near the brief splendour that was apparantly experienced in the first 200 odd years. Statements of the time always compare the shortcomings of the realms in comparison to those early days. __________________ 'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.'

07-09-2004, 06:12 PM	#4
Osse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours. Posts: 274	Thank you for supplying that quote! My copy of the Silm. is somewhere buried under many boxes in a garage many miles from here. This seems to have cleared up my issues with this topic. Thank you to all who contributed to this thread! Regards, Osse __________________ 'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.'

07-12-2004, 10:50 PM	#5
Nirvana II Wight Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: The Yellow Submarine....sandwich Posts: 207	isnt it possible that the ships were incredibly large????? __________________ Это - российская вещь, Вы не поняли бы. Вы - пончик желе! Я оказался снова. Частное сообщение меня, если Вы понимаете.

07-13-2004, 05:12 AM	#6
Osse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours. Posts: 274	It is not inconceivable! Imagine: Thousands of trees felled, linen in every room, and ensuites in the upper deck. Enjoy deck games and open air - Join an Elendil Cruise today!! __________________ 'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.'

07-05-2004, 11:13 AM	#1
kboleen Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Northwest Florida Posts: 27	Elendil "founded" the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor, he didn't necessarily build them into the powerhouses they were at the peak. Time did that. His heirs ruled for 2000 years after his and Isildur's death before the last one was killed in battle and the the Stewards took power.