The Landing of Elendil - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

symestreem · 07-13-2004, 01:09 PM

They are described as 'great ships' several times, and it is implied that they are big enough for someone of high rank to live there comfortably (Aldarion). Try looking in Aldarion and Erendis and Akallabeth.

Osse · 07-14-2004, 02:45 AM

Great ships can mean that the either they were great in comparison to the craft of other races, or that they were truly huge... i'd go for the former! Just because a ship is large, dosn't mean that it could carry many people... okay for arguments sake let's say that they had more than one deck, and many masts... three decks sounds good, and three masts....

A ship that size... hmmm... you'd hope to have about 200 passengers and 70 or so crew! That's still not many.

If however they were huge (bigger than anything man has been able to create) they could obviously hold much more than that! Say... 500 passengers and 160 crew. That ship would be absolutely enormous!

And as for the Endevour... it was small enough to sail on lakes... it wasn't that big. The explorers often chose speed over bulk - they didn't need to carry cargo, just provisions.

Mithalwen · 07-14-2004, 12:35 PM

The book I am reading is 1421- The year China discovered the world.... they had ships whose complement topped 1K!!!!!!!

And Endeavour, well.... maybe not on an English lake..... Windemere maybe..... but it was designed to go in low water because of Cook's surveying purposes... although nearly sunk by Joseph Banks' modifications for the second voyage......

Lalwendë · 07-14-2004, 12:50 PM

The ships may well have been exceptionally large - I can't remember the exact words, but in Akallabeth it says that Ar-Pharazon's 'flagship' was huge - being as big as a castle seems to stick in my mind. So, there could have been hundreds just on one ship. A BD-er who is less lazy might like to look it up.

The Endeavour? Small? It didn't seem that way when I went on it (the replica I hasten to add, I am not over 200 years old)! I think they crammed something like at least 200 men on board. It was converted from a coal carrying boat. There's a nautical term for these which I've forgotten, and it's going to annoy me now. These were designed to be shallow bottomed. That's probably why they chose to convert a ship, if it was intended to go into shallower waters.

Mithalwen · 07-14-2004, 01:19 PM

OK this has hit on one of my anorak topics - The Endeavour was a barque..... a Whitby Barque which Cook who was raised in that area was familiar with and suggested for that purpose ...so I meant it was designed for getting in close to shore rather than specifically for surveying.

So the chinese ships of 250 years earlier were dramatically larger.... but I am sure aculture as developed as Numenor's could deliver the goods.....

http://www.1421.tv/pages/evidence/co...EvidenceID=168

Lalwendë · 07-14-2004, 02:13 PM

Thanks for that - now I can stop feeling cross with myself! I exaggerated though, The Endeavour carried 94 men - I obviously got a little too over-awed - I've seen it sailing at Whitby three times as well as actually going onboard. The webpage is www.hmbarkendeavour.com.au if anyone is thinking 'what the hell....?'

Anyway, another thing I remember is that Elendil's fleet rescued large numbers of children - surely a greater guarantee of a larger future population? Big ships, lots of children, and an existing population of 'ex-pats', all these would add up to a potentially large population.

Noxomanus · 07-14-2004, 03:23 PM

On top of that, post-wartime people allways breed like rabbits..

Osse · 07-15-2004, 02:47 AM

Not always... especially on the losing side. Imagine; the roman's have just conquered a country - it's full of famine, homelessness and until they decide it's in their interests to occupy properly, the population dwindles a LOT...

If there are no men around, there tend to be no little men around (despite what you amazonians say).

However, I daresay you are right, and the populations in the case of the Numenoreans would have increased (or replenished) rapidly after a war.

07-14-2004, 02:45 AM	#2
Osse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours. Posts: 274	Great ships can mean that the either they were great in comparison to the craft of other races, or that they were truly huge... i'd go for the former! Just because a ship is large, dosn't mean that it could carry many people... okay for arguments sake let's say that they had more than one deck, and many masts... three decks sounds good, and three masts.... A ship that size... hmmm... you'd hope to have about 200 passengers and 70 or so crew! That's still not many. If however they were huge (bigger than anything man has been able to create) they could obviously hold much more than that! Say... 500 passengers and 160 crew. That ship would be absolutely enormous! And as for the Endevour... it was small enough to sail on lakes... it wasn't that big. The explorers often chose speed over bulk - they didn't need to carry cargo, just provisions. __________________ 'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.'

07-14-2004, 12:35 PM	#3
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	The book I am reading is 1421- The year China discovered the world.... they had ships whose complement topped 1K!!!!!!! And Endeavour, well.... maybe not on an English lake..... Windemere maybe..... but it was designed to go in low water because of Cook's surveying purposes... although nearly sunk by Joseph Banks' modifications for the second voyage...... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace Last edited by Mithalwen; 07-14-2004 at 01:20 PM. Reason: typo

07-14-2004, 01:19 PM	#5
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	OK this has hit on one of my anorak topics - The Endeavour was a barque..... a Whitby Barque which Cook who was raised in that area was familiar with and suggested for that purpose ...so I meant it was designed for getting in close to shore rather than specifically for surveying. So the chinese ships of 250 years earlier were dramatically larger.... but I am sure aculture as developed as Numenor's could deliver the goods..... http://www.1421.tv/pages/evidence/co...EvidenceID=168 __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

07-14-2004, 03:23 PM	#7
Noxomanus Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 233	On top of that, post-wartime people allways breed like rabbits.. __________________ Nothing is evil in the beginning,even Sauron wasn't

07-15-2004, 02:47 AM	#8
Osse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours. Posts: 274	Not always... especially on the losing side. Imagine; the roman's have just conquered a country - it's full of famine, homelessness and until they decide it's in their interests to occupy properly, the population dwindles a LOT... If there are no men around, there tend to be no little men around (despite what you amazonians say). However, I daresay you are right, and the populations in the case of the Numenoreans would have increased (or replenished) rapidly after a war. __________________ 'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.'

07-13-2004, 01:09 PM	#1
symestreem Face in the Water Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 728	They are described as 'great ships' several times, and it is implied that they are big enough for someone of high rank to live there comfortably (Aldarion). Try looking in Aldarion and Erendis and Akallabeth.

07-14-2004, 12:50 PM	#4
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	The ships may well have been exceptionally large - I can't remember the exact words, but in Akallabeth it says that Ar-Pharazon's 'flagship' was huge - being as big as a castle seems to stick in my mind. So, there could have been hundreds just on one ship. A BD-er who is less lazy might like to look it up. The Endeavour? Small? It didn't seem that way when I went on it (the replica I hasten to add, I am not over 200 years old)! I think they crammed something like at least 200 men on board. It was converted from a coal carrying boat. There's a nautical term for these which I've forgotten, and it's going to annoy me now. These were designed to be shallow bottomed. That's probably why they chose to convert a ship, if it was intended to go into shallower waters.

07-14-2004, 02:13 PM	#6
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	Thanks for that - now I can stop feeling cross with myself! I exaggerated though, The Endeavour carried 94 men - I obviously got a little too over-awed - I've seen it sailing at Whitby three times as well as actually going onboard. The webpage is www.hmbarkendeavour.com.au if anyone is thinking 'what the hell....?' Anyway, another thing I remember is that Elendil's fleet rescued large numbers of children - surely a greater guarantee of a larger future population? Big ships, lots of children, and an existing population of 'ex-pats', all these would add up to a potentially large population.