Good guys of LOTR clueless?

[Legolas]

The 'discrepancies' you point out and attribute to characters in the story are obviously points that should be attributed more to the author. As presented in the original post, these assertions are misdirected. In the first thing pointed out, the quotes about the Ring's possible destruction, is that really Gandalf being stupid? I don't think so. More than likely, it's the author who was writing the book as he went. That is, when taken at face value - out of context, as they've been presented. The difference between the two statements can be explained by the passage of time. Gandalf had found out a lot between those scenes. He had been to Orthanc and seen what Sauron had done to Saruman - especially in reguards ; moreover, he now knew that Gollum had escaped (the quote comes from the Council of Elrond after Legolas had given his news of hte escape). Saruman's mention of searching for the Ring changed his perspective on Sauron's hopes of finding it. Gandalf wasn't stupid; there was simply very little to go on in the beginning. Over the course of that first volume is where the story begins fittingly - as the plans of Sauron begin to unravel and Gandalf now has enough to see the full picture.

Really? Form Morgoth's Ring (myths transformed, VII, ii)-

One doesn't even have to read the statement that follows to see the discrepancy in your own assertions - the quote that follows was written after the writing and publishing of Lord of the Rings. Any writings from before your quote cannot be expected to totally line up with the quote itself. They may loosely, but it could be (and may very well be) that Tolkien had changed his perspective on the matter (not necessarily a 180-degree change, but still a change). Such a development in thought is bound to cause some "discrepancies" with earlier writings.

[tar-ancalime]

Do you really think it's possible that Sauron didn't understand the way his own Ring worked?

Yes, absolutely! There had never been a ring like it before--that's what makes it the One Ring--and certainly it had never been destroyed before. Who was to say what would happen when it was cast into the fire? For all Sauron (or anyone else) knew, destroying the Ring could have ushered in a new age of...oh, let's say, Orc cotillions.

[Findegil]

First of all I agree compltely with what Tar-Ancalime said.
I also think that it is very important to look a the times addressed by the quotes.
When Gandalf says that Sauron thought the ring was destroied by the Elves, he reffers to the time after his defeat by the Last Alliance. What did Sauron knew to let him think so?
- As jet any such defeat had seen him recover soon, but know he had much more trouble to do that.
- There were two great Lords of the Elves and he could be sure that at least Elrond did know about the Ring. In addition there was this young man who had already two times crossed his plans to destroy the last White Tree, and had just now dealt him a deadly blow and afterwards cuted the Ring from his finger.
-> The natural conclusion seems clearly that they had destroyed his Ring.

But later Sauron learned that the Ring still existed, by which way we don't know but it is possible that it was by contact with the nine, since we can belife that Sauron did know if the elvischrings would lose their power with the destrction of his ring.
With that info Saurons picture changed:
- Three of his biggest enemies left after the war of the Last Alliance in conclave and on the spot to do it had not been willing to destroy the Ring.
->Thus know body could be.

It is attested that Sauron did not understand the motiv of Gollums unbreakable resistence against him. This could only mean that he never understood the ability of the ring to creat a disire to posses him completly independent from the disire for power or might that the possesion of the ring promissed. Since the desire to posses the ring was it that secured it from destrucion (atested by Isildur and by Frodo) Sauron had missinterpreted the motives of his enemys in not destroing the ring in the Second age. For Sauron they were all struggeling for power of their own. And Saruman was a prime example that he was right.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Osse]

Good speculation on how Sauron percieved the power of his Ring to affect others Findegil!

Sauron could never really understand that his ring held more of a pull than just the desire for power, and that it in itself was what drew the person (basically) not just the power it gives. Like you say, why should he? All he knows is that it gives huge power, and that he desires the power... it is part of him remember.

How then could he feel that anyone would possess the ring if they did not want the power associated with it? How could he possibly concieve that anyone would want to destroy it. His assumptions that whoever possessed it was just carrying it until it was given to a more powerful wielder, did not go without at least some justification. I can now sympathize with his reasoning, or more importantly lack thereof...

[The Saucepan Man]

Great post, Findegil. Makes perfect sense to me.

As I see it, Sauron was judging others by his own standards and ascribing to them his own motives. He assumed that those who came into contact with the Ring would inevitably attempt to use it to gain power, rather than destroy it. And this assumption was not entirely unjustified in light of the behaviour of Saruman (one of the "wise").

His fear on perceiving Frodo with the Ring at Sammath Naur is occasioned by the sudden realisation that, if someone could make it all the way to Mount Doom with the Ring without having attempted to use it to gain power, then they might just be capable of destroying it. The passage refers to him suddenly realising the "magnitude of his own folly". In other words, it only occurred to him at that moment that his assumption that anyone bearing the Ring would inevitably try to use it to gain power might actually be incorrect.

As matters turned out, he was right that (Bombadil excepted) no one could willingly destroy the Ring, but for the wrong reasons. As Findegil has pointed out, it disn't occur to him that the Ring could coerce someone to simply desire possession of it, without regard to enhancing their power, to such a degree that they would be incapable of destroying it. So, but for the intervention of "providence" he needn't have feared.

[Rimbaud]

Quite, and I think Sauce has been striking proverbial nails on their teeny-tiny heads: Sauron was quite right. Excepting the chap with brightly-coloured boots, who doesn't really fit in with the rest anyway, nobody was capable of destroying the Ring. Nobody, deliberately, ever did so.

Further to Gandalf's quote regarding Sauron's belief in the Ring's destruction: it is clear that Sauron was sore wounded by the Ring-finger-smiting incident, and when he repaired for a good long time to the dark recesses of the world, must have believed that his injury was resultant upon the Ring's destruction, not merely the severing of himself from it. As has been ably described above, the realisation that this was not the case would have distinctly changed his outlook, and confirmed his prior belief that none could willingly destroy it afresh.

[the phantom]

when he repaired for a good long time to the dark recesses of the world, must have believed that his injury was resultant upon the Ring's destruction, not merely the severing of himself from it

As jet any such defeat had seen him recover soon, but know he had much more trouble to do that

But wasn't Sauron seperated from his Ring when he was in Numenor? I seem to remember a quote saying when he got back home he "took up his Ring again" or something like that. So it's not like Sauron didn't know what it felt like to be without his Ring. Yeah, the recovery was more difficult without the Ring, but surely he realized that the Ring was still somewhere since he was able to recover.

For all Sauron (or anyone else) knew, destroying the Ring could have ushered in a new age of...oh, let's say, Orc cotillions.

Judging from this and other comments I guess people really do think that Sauron didn't know jack about his Ring. I just have a difficult time believing this, particularly that he had no clue what its destruction would do to him.

If he (as Gandalf said) thought it was destroyed and had not met his doom why would he know it was his doom when he sensed Frodo at the Cracks?

Why would he think someone had destroyed it and also think someone wouldn't destroy it?

So far, the only way my fellow downers have been able to answer these questions involves making Sauron somewhat (or extremely) ignorant about his own creation, his ultimate weapon, his precious. The Ring wasn't some other guy he imprisoned inside of a wedding band; the Ring was a part of him. The Ring's 'body' and 'spirit' were created by Sauron.

Making him clueless about the Ring seems to me even more improbable than making the good guys clueless about Sauron. Doesn't the latter seem more plausible to anyone, or am I alone?

Maybe everyone hates to see the good guys brought down a peg?

One doesn't even have to read the statement that follows to see the discrepancy in your own assertions - the quote that follows was written after the writing and publishing of Lord of the Rings. Any writings from before your quote cannot be expected to totally line up with the quote itself. They may loosely, but it could be (and may very well be) that Tolkien had changed his perspective on the matter (not necessarily a 180-degree change, but still a change). Such a development in thought is bound to cause some "discrepancies" with earlier writings.

Well dang, Legolas, I guess we shouldn't ever bring up The Sil, HoME, LOTR, The Hobbit, or any other Tolkien book when we're talking about another book, since he didn't write them all at the same exact time.

But don't worry, I get your point.

The 'discrepancies' you point out and attribute to characters in the story are obviously points that should be attributed more to the author. More than likely, it's the author who was writing the book as he went.

That seems like too easy of a way to get out of this. I mean, it's true when you disagree with something or dislike a notion you can always say "Well, this isn't real, there was an author involved and they made a mistake", but I'm trying hard to keep this within the framework of Middle-Earth.

And within the framework, my theory seems possible (more possible to me than Sauron not understanding his own Ring).

The difference between the two statements can be explained by the passage of time. Gandalf had found out a lot between those scenes. Gandalf wasn't stupid; there was simply very little to go on in the beginning. Over the course of that first volume is where the story begins fittingly - as the plans of Sauron begin to unravel and Gandalf now has enough to see the full picture.

That's very true, Legolas, but it doesn't take away from what I'm saying. You see, Gandalf's first and second statements were both communicated as fact. At the beginning when he didn't see the full picture (as you said) he presented his knowledge as fact. He didn't say "I believe" or "I think" or "It's likely". There was no difference in the presentation of the two statements.

So how do we know the second was indeed the "full picture", since Gandalf has set a precedent for stating things that were not proven.

Do we know if anyone ever had the full picture, even at the end?

To my mind Sauron is very powerful, but not very bright

Oh please. You're calling Sauron "not very bright"? I don't have my books with me, but I know I've read that he was studious, brilliant, and powerful. And Gandalf at the Council of Elrond calls Sauron "very wise". (then again, maybe Gandalf is mistaken again )

At the end, when Frodo stood at the Sammath Naur, & suspect that his reaction wasn't 'intellectual' - ie, that he realised his situation & his danger

That seems to go against what the book says-

for he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung

Well, I figured this theory would seem too anti-good guy to fly with most, but I'm surprised that there hasn't been anyone at all on the Downs that is willing to play along a bit and maybe has some thoughts or quotes that would go with it.

If not, oh well. It's not like I've never had an unpopular opinion.