Cellar Door

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I feel somewhat out of place on this thread, not having actually seen Donnie Darko (yet! I promise I will.), but could somebody please explain to me the significance of the phrase "cellar door"? I mean, if you forget the meaning and concentrate on sound alone, it does have a rather nice ring to it, but I'm not entirely sure if that's the point or not... Please...

Fea

Donnie Darko my favorite sci-fi/nuerosis film. The "Cellar Door" quote has been attributed to several linguists, but most often Tolkein, so that is what I go with. In reading TLOTR (obviously before before reading any of the pronounciation material in the appendix) when I got to Lothlorien and met Celeborn (also Celebrien, Celebrant, etc...) my natural english pronounciation of the soft "Ce" made a light bulb go off in my head, Celeborn sounds just like Cellar Door. I was very proud of my self for making that connection...

...Then I read the pronounciation stuff and saw the movie...and realized the general consensus is that Celeborn and similar names are pronounced with a hard C like "Keleborn" similar to the word Celtic (although some pronounce it "Seltic" i.e. The Boston Celtics).

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
-Mirabella

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

The 'Cellar Door' scene was the only remotely interesting part of the film for me. About a year later I read about Tolkien and saw where it came from.

I do agree with him, the two words make a lovely sound.


(In case anyone wants to defend the film from me, pm me because this thread is not the place to discuss Donnie Darko.)

[davem]

Can I be the first to mention Ursula le Guin's (intentional) 'tribute', naming one of the Islands of Earthsea, the one furthest west, 'Selidor'.

[piosenniel]

Thought you might like to see this:

The basic pleasure in the phonetic elements of a language and in the style of their patterns, and then in a higher dimension, pleasure in the association of these word-forms with meanings, is of fundamental importance. This pleasure is quite distinct from the practical knowledge of a language, and not the same as an analytic understanding of its structure. It is simpler, deeper-rooted, and yet more immediate than the enjoyment of literature. Thought it may be allied to some of the elements in the appreciation of verse, it does not need any poets, other than the nameless artists who composed the language. It can be strongly felt in the simple contemplation of vocabulary, or even in a string of names. ...Most English-speaking people, for instance, will admit that *cellar door* is 'beautiful,' especially if dissociated from its sense (and from its spelling). More beautiful that, say, *sky*, and far more beautiful than *beautiful*, Well then, in Welsh, for me *cellar doors* are extraordinarily frequent, and moving to the higher dimension, the words in which there is pleasure in the contemplation of the association of form and sense are abundant.

-- J.R.R. Tolkien "English and Welsh" (lecture, 10/21/55) published in - Angles and Britons: O'Donnell Lectures (1963) and reprinted in: The Monsters and the Critics and Other Essays(1983) by J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by Christopher Tolkien

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

Now, what interests me is exactly why he considered "cellar door" to be such an illustrious phrase. It does sound quite nice, but I think we must consider the accent he was accustomed to - "cellar door" sounds much better to me as an Englishman would say it than with American pronuciation!

But how did he choose the phrase as an example? I don't suppose we'll ever know, really... and it would be hard to think of a particularly beatiful-sounding word or combination off the top of one's head. Yet I still wonder if there's some sort of a history to his choice.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

sounds much better to me as an Englishman would say it than with American pronuciation

Perhaps that's my problem... I find the only down side of being American is the "Americanization" of the English language. "I don't speak English, I speak American." Well, I say revert to English... it's a prettier language than the garble most people consider speech around here. That and MacDonalds... can't go anywhere without seeing gigantic, mustard yellow, arches glaring at me. But back to my point; how exactly would 'cellar door' be pronounced in English English? I didn't realize it would have that much difference...

Fea

[The Saucepan Man]

Well then, in Welsh, for me *cellar doors* are extraordinarily frequent ...

But wouldn't "cellar door" in Welsh (and indeed Elvish) be pronounced Kellar Door? Hmm, Celedor - a relative of Celeborn, perhaps?

That and MacDonalds... can't go anywhere without seeing gigantic, mustard yellow, arches glaring at me.

Alas, I think that you'll find that's the same the world over these days.

Well, I say revert to English... it's a prettier language than the garble most people consider speech around here.

Well you know what they say - the Americans and the English: a people divided by a common language.

OK, first lesson:

Garbage = Rubbish
Hood = Bonnet
Color = Colour
Sidewalk = Pavement
Apartment = Flat
Movie = Film
Theatre = Cinema

...

Hehe, I could go on for ever ...