Good guys of LOTR clueless?

[Maédhros]

The Silm indeed states "Now the Elves made many rings". Twenty rings (1+3+7+9) doesn't sound 'many rings' to me. I always figured there were more rings than these. Bilbo's ring could have been one of these lesser rings, making it much harder for Gandalf to find out which ring Bilbo's indeed was.

He could have done exactly the same thing that he did later on. Go to Minas Tirith and look for clues about the Ring that Isildur wore. Simple.
He didn't have to wait for 59 years to do it.
Twenty rings sounds "many" to me.

As to Isildur, The Disaster of the Gladden Fields in the Unfinished Tales says: "No trace of his body was ever found by Elves or Men." suggesting that they did indeed search for him. It also says that "his mail, helm, shield and great sword (but nothing else) had been found", further suggesting he was searched for.

It seems to me that you need to keep on reading the other paragraphs of The Disaster of the Gladden Fields

Long afterwards, as the Third Age of the Elvish World waned and the War of the Ring approached, it was revealed to the Council of Elrond that the Ring had been found, sunk near the edge of the Gladden Fields and close to the western bank; though no trace of Isildur's body was ever discovered. They ere also then aware that Saruman had been secretly searching in the same region; but though he had not found the Ring (which had long before been carried off), they did not yet know what else he might have discovered.
But King Elessar, when he was crowned in Gondor, began the re-ordering of his realm, and one of his first tasks was the restoration of Orthanc, where he proposed to set up again the palantir recovered from Saruman. Then all the secrets of the tower were searched. Many things of worth were found, jewels and heirlooms of Eorl, filched from Edoras by the agency of Wormtongue during King Théoden's decline, and other such things, more ancient and beautiful, from mounds and tombs far and wide. Saruman in his degradation had become not a dragon but a jackdaw. At last behind a hidden door that they could not have found or opened had not Elessar had the aid of Gimli the Dwarf a steel closet was revealed. Maybe it had been intended to receive the Ring; but it was almost bare. In a casket on a high shelf two things were laid. One was a small case of gold, attached to a fine chain; it was empty, and bore no letter or token, but beyond all doubt it had once borne the Ring about Isildur's neck. Next to it lay a treasure without price, long mourned as lost for ever: the Elendilmir itself, the white star of Elvish crystal upon a fillet of mithril that had descended from Silmarien to Elendil, and had been taken by him as the token of royalty in the North Kingdom. Every king and the chieftains that followed them in Arnor had borne the Elendilmir down even to Elessar himself; but though it was a jewel of great beauty, made by Elven-smiths in Imladris for Valandil Isildur's son, it had not the ancientry nor potency of the one that had been lost when Isildur fled into the dark and came back no more.
Elessar took it up with reverence, and when he returned to the North and took up again the full kingship of Arnor Arwen bound it upon his brow, and men were silent in amaze to see its splendour. But Elessar did not again imperil it, and wore it only on high days in the North Kingdom. Otherwise, when in kingly raiment he bore the Elendilmir which had descended to him. "And this also is thing of reverence," he said, "and above my worth; forty heads have worn it before."
When men considered this secret hoard more closely, they were dismayed. For it seemed to them that these things, and certainly the Elendilmir, could not have been found, unless they had been upon Isildur's body when he sank; but if that had been in deep water of strong flow they would in time have been swept far away. Therefore Isildur must have fallen not into the deep stream but into shallow water, no more than shoulder-high, Why then, though an Age had passed, were there no traces of his bones? Had Saruman found them, and scorned them – burned them with dishonour in one of his furnaces? If that were so, it was a shameful deed; but not his worst.

Isildur was slained in year 2 of TA. It is in 2463 when Déagol the Stoor finds the One Ring, and is murdered by Sméagol.
Then we find out that Saruman begins to search the Gladden Fields at 2851 TA.

If what you say is true, then both the Elves and Men who searched for the remains of Isildur must be very incompetent or clueless.
Look, Déagol found the Ring in 2463 TA, meaning that 2461 years had passed from the death of Isildur, and Saruman found items belonging to Isildur in 2851 TA. There had passed 388 years since Déagol had found the ring.
Are you telling me that in 2849 years, the good guys could not have found those things that Saruman did? Please.

[Earendilyon]

Originally Posted by Maédhros

He could have done exactly the same thing that he did later on. Go to Minas Tirith and look for clues about the Ring that Isildur wore. Simple.
He didn't have to wait for 59 years to do it.
Twenty rings sounds "many" to me.

I do think 20 rings do not count as many, but that's not very important here. I assume Gandalf had more things to do than hunt for info on the ring Bilbo possessed. It probably was not the top priority on his list at first. Also, he probably didn't know where to exactly find the information he needed. Maybe he first went to Rivendell, then to Lórien and finally to Minas Tirith. We neither do know how large the archives were he had to search through. I assume they were after some 3000 years rather huge, and probably not as nicely inventoried as modern archives. Remember also that he didn't get easily access to Minas Tirith's archives of Denethor. All these things would have cost consideral time

It seems to me that you need to keep on reading the other paragraphs of The Disaster of the Gladden Fields

Isildur was slained in year 2 of TA. It is in 2463 when Déagol the Stoor finds the One Ring, and is murdered by Sméagol.
Then we find out that Saruman begins to search the Gladden Fields at 2851 TA.

If what you say is true, then both the Elves and Men who searched for the remains of Isildur must be very incompetent or clueless.
Look, Déagol found the Ring in 2463 TA, meaning that 2461 years had passed from the death of Isildur, and Saruman found items belonging to Isildur in 2851 TA. There had passed 388 years since Déagol had found the ring.
Are you telling me that in 2849 years, the good guys could not have found those things that Saruman did? Please.

I did read the rest of The Disaster of the Gladden Fields, of course!
Like you, I do not know why 'the good guys' didn't find more than they did. They did find the stuff Isildur threw away. Probably they didn't search that much after the first search. Why? Maybe because they figured Isildur's body had be washed to the sea? Your guess is as good as mine!
Another thing to consider is, that the Elves and Woodmen fighting the Orc party who had attacked Isidur's group probably left quite quickly after destroying and pursuing what was left of the Orc party.
Gondor and Arnor, moreover, were, just 2 years after the War of the Last Alliance and after Isildur's death in great turmoil, I assume, and the people were more interested in destroying what was left of Sauron's armies and in rebuilding their society than in searching for the remains of Isildur, which they thought had washed to the sea.

[Maédhros]

I do think 20 rings do not count as many, but that's not very important here. I assume Gandalf had more things to do than hunt for info on the ring Bilbo possessed. It probably was not the top priority on his list at first. Also, he probably didn't know where to exactly find the information he needed. Maybe he first went to Rivendell, then to Lórien and finally to Minas Tirith. We neither do know how large the archives were he had to search through. I assume they were after some 3000 years rather huge, and probably not as nicely inventoried as modern archives. Remember also that he didn't get easily access to Minas Tirith's archives of Denethor. All these things would have cost consideral time

Look at this:
From LOTR:

‘When did I first begin to guess?’ he mused, searching back in memory. ‘Let me see - it was in the year that the White Council drove the dark power from Mirkwood, just before the Battle of Five Armies, that Bilbo found his ring. A shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not know yet what I feared. I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was - that at least was clear from the first. Then I heard Bilbo’s strange story of how he had “won” it, and I could not believe it. When I at last got the truth out of him, I saw at once that he had been trying to put his claim to the ring beyond doubt. Much like Gollum with his “birthday present”. The lies were too much alike for my comfort. Clearly the ring had an unwholesome power that set to work on its keeper at once.

That was in the year 2941 TA.
From the Council of Elrond

'Some here will remember that many years ago I myself dared to pass the doors of the Necromancer in Dol Guldur, and secretly explored his ways, and found thus that our fears were true: he was none other than Sauron, our Enemy of old, at length taking shape and power again. Some, too, will remember also that Saruman dissuaded us from open deeds against him, and for long we watched him only. Yet at last, as his shadow grew, Saruman yielded, and the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood and that was in the very year of the finding of this Ring: a strange chance, if chance it was.
`But we were too late, as Elrond foresaw. Sauron also had watched us, and had long prepared against our stroke, governing Mordor from afar through Minas Morgul, where his Nine servants dwelt, until all was ready. Then he gave way before us, but only feigned to flee, and soon after came to the Dark Tower and openly declared himself. Then for the last time the Council met; for now we learned that he was seeking ever more eagerly for the One. We feared then that he had some news of it that we knew nothing of. But Saruman said nay, and repeated what he had said to us before: that the One would never again be found in Middle-earth.
` "At the worst," said he, "our Enemy knows that we have it not and that it still is lost. But what was lost may yet be found, he thinks. Fear not! His hope will cheat him. Have I not earnestly studied this matter? Into Anduin the Great it fell; and long ago, while Sauron slept, it was rolled down the River to the Sea. There let it lie until the End."'
Gandalf fell silent, gazing eastward from the porch to the far peaks of the Misty Mountains, at whose great roots the peril of the world had so long lain hidden. He sighed.
`There I was at fault,' he said. `I was lulled by the words of Saruman the Wise; but I should have sought for the truth sooner, and our peril would now be less.'
`We were all at fault,' said Elrond, `and but for your vigilance the Darkness, maybe, would already be upon us. But say on!'
`From the first my heart misgave me, against all reason that I knew,' said Gandalf, `and I desired to know how this thing came to Gollum, and how long he had possessed it. So I set a watch for him, guessing that he would ere long come forth from his darkness to seek for his treasure. He came, but he escaped and was not found. And then alas! I let the matter rest, watching and waiting only, as we have too often done.

` "The Nine, the Seven, and the Three," he said, "had each their proper gem. Not so the One. It was round and unadorned, as it were one of the lesser rings; but its maker set marks upon it that the skilled, maybe, could still see and read."
`What those marks were he had not said. Who now would know? The maker. And Saruman? But great though his lore may be, it must have a source. What hand save Sauron's ever held this thing, ere it was lost? The hand of Isildur alone.
`With that thought, I forsook the chase, and passed swiftly to Gondor. In former days the members of my order had been well received there, but Saruman most of all. Often he had been for long the guest of the Lords of the City. Less welcome did the Lord Denethor show me then than of old, and grudgingly he permitted me to search among his hoarded scrolls and books.
' "If indeed you look only, as you say, for records of ancient days, and the beginnings of the City, read on! " he said. "For to me what was is less dark than what is to come, and that is my care. But unless you have more skill even than Saruman, who has studied here long, you will find naught that is not well known to me, who am master of the lore of this City."

This is sad. Gandalf had a hunch in 2941 TA that there was something odd with Bilbo's ring. But he had to wait until 3001 TA to seriously think that it could be Sauron's ring. There had passed 60 years. It is in 3017 TA that Gandalf goes to Minas Tirith to read the scroll of Isildur.
If Gandalf had been more vigilant, he could have just travelled to Minas Tirith circa 2942 to find out about the One Ring, so as to discard that it was not Sauron's ring, instead of waiting 75 years to do that. And a minor plus point is that probably Gandalf would have been better received by Denethor at an earlier time.

Another thing to consider is, that the Elves and Woodmen fighting the Orc party who had attacked Isidur's group probably left quite quickly after destroying and pursuing what was left of the Orc party.
Gondor and Arnor, moreover, were, just 2 years after the War of the Last Alliance and after Isildur's death in great turmoil, I assume, and the people were more interested in destroying what was left of Sauron's armies and in rebuilding their society than in searching for the remains of Isildur, which they thought had washed to the sea.

That is an horrible excuse. I wonder how many people could have been saved, if the Ring had been destroyed before Sauron had been able to regain his strength.
Why didn't Elrond do a decent search then, if he himself had warned Isildur to destroy the Ring? His realm was not in great turmoil. What is his excuse then?

[NightKnight]

Quoting the same passage as Maédhros used:

"At the worst," said he, "our Enemy knows that we have it not and that it still is lost. But what was lost may yet be found, he thinks. Fear not! His hope will cheat him. Have I not earnestly studied this matter? Into Anduin the Great it fell; and long ago, while Sauron slept, it was rolled down the River to the Sea. There let it lie until the End."'
Gandalf fell silent, gazing eastward from the porch to the far peaks of the Misty Mountains, at whose great roots the peril of the world had so long lain hidden. He sighed.
`There I was at fault,' he said. `I was lulled by the words of Saruman the Wise; but I should have sought for the truth sooner, and our peril would now be less.'

Saruman was, after all, Gandalf's superior, and had studied the rings a lot. Gandalf had at that time no reason to mistrust Saruman.

"The Nine, the Seven, and the Three," he said, "had each their proper gem. Not so the One. It was round and unadorned, as it were one of the lesser rings; but its maker set marks upon it that the skilled, maybe, could still see and read."

He could immidiately dismiss the thought of it being one of the Nine, Seven or Three. And what would the chances be of a hobbit picking up the long lost One Ring? The chances of him finding a "lesser" ring would probably be bigger.
I think Gandalf did what he could. After TA 3001 when he picked up his suspicions, he went around hunting Gollum for a while as well. And he might also have gone to other places to search, mainly Rivendell, like someone said.

[Legolas]

Bilbo's ring seemed very harmless. He stole it from a disgusting creature in a cave under the mountains (which the creature was using to hunt fish). It can turn him invisible... None of this points anywhere near the great Ring Sauron used to enslave the Nazgul. I don't find the situation of "Oh - Bilbo found a ring. Better make sure it's not Sauron's One Ring!" plausible (even ignoring the fact that the Ring was thought to be lost forever, washed into the sea). Gandalf does say magic rings are "rare and curious," but while rare, there were undoubtedly many more aside from the Rings of Power (and though there were 20, at the least 12 were accounted for). It took the Ring preserving his youth to throw up a flag.

[Earendilyon]

Originally Posted by Maédhros

This is sad. Gandalf had a hunch in 2941 TA that there was something odd with Bilbo's ring. But he had to wait until 3001 TA to seriously think that it could be Sauron's ring. There had passed 60 years. It is in 3017 TA that Gandalf goes to Minas Tirith to read the scroll of Isildur.
If Gandalf had been more vigilant, he could have just travelled to Minas Tirith circa 2942 to find out about the One Ring, so as to discard that it was not Sauron's ring, instead of waiting 75 years to do that. And a minor plus point is that probably Gandalf would have been better received by Denethor at an earlier time.

This has, IMO, sufficiently answered by NightKnight and Legolas.

That is an horrible excuse. I wonder how many people could have been saved, if the Ring had been destroyed before Sauron had been able to regain his strength.
Why didn't Elrond do a decent search then, if he himself had warned Isildur to destroy the Ring? His realm was not in great turmoil. What is his excuse then?

Horrible excuse? Don't throw that at me! I'm just trying to find an explanation for this situation. The Elves present (after Isildur already had died) at the Gladden Fields were Thranduil's Wood Elves, not Elves from Rivendell. So, before the Disaster had reached Elrond's ears, several weeks would have past. Maybe he sent out a small party to seek for Isildur's remains, for all we know. Maybe not. As opposed to you, I do belief also Elrond's realm would have been in great turmoil. He and his army had away from home and hearth for the duration of the War of the Lat Alliance, which lasted a total of twelve years! After returning in Rivendell there would have been many pressing matters to attend to.
When all was 'normal' again in Rivendell, Arnor, and Gondor time had passed and people probably thought it no longer usefull to hunt for remains of Isildur, guessing he had been brought to sea by the River Anduin.

[Kuruharan]

There is something else to consider as well.

If Gandalf had been more vigilant, he could have just travelled to Minas Tirith circa 2942 to find out about the One Ring, so as to discard that it was not Sauron's ring, instead of waiting 75 years to do that. And a minor plus point is that probably Gandalf would have been better received by Denethor at an earlier time.

Gandalf went to Minas Tirith as soon as he had the idea that the answers he sought might be there.

Now I suppose he will be chided for not thinking of this sooner.

Regarding the search made for Isildur’s body…

I think there is evidence (already noted above) that Elves and Men tried to search for Isildur’s body. However, just because they did not find it is not proof of incompetence. Consider, they were operating in hostile territory. It is true that the local orcs had lost a good deal, but they were probably still capable of pouncing upon small parties of searchers. Later, when Saruman was searching, he probably had an understanding with the local orcs, if indeed they were not working with him. Elves and Men had no particular reason to guard the area, so Saruman was able to search the area most carefully and with security. Just because Saruman found the body does not mean that it was easy to find. It might have been that it took him a very long time to uncover it. We don’t know when the body was found. Saruman began searching in 2851. The next we hear of it is in 2939 when Sauron starts searching the area. That gives Saruman considerable time to drag an unlimited number of bodies from the river.

[Maédhros]

He could immidiately dismiss the thought of it being one of the Nine, Seven or Three. And what would the chances be of a hobbit picking up the long lost One Ring? The chances of him finding a "lesser" ring would probably be bigger.
I think Gandalf did what he could. After TA 3001 when he picked up his suspicions, he went around hunting Gollum for a while as well. And he might also have gone to other places to search, mainly Rivendell, like someone said.

The sad thing is that his suspicions came in 2941 and he acted on them in 3001. He did what he could, he just waited for 60 years.

Saruman was, after all, Gandalf's superior, and had studied the rings a lot. Gandalf had at that time no reason to mistrust Saruman.

This is interesting.
From LOTR

That was the first real warning I had that all was not well. I told Bilbo often that such rings were better left unused; but he resented it, and soon got angry. There was little else that I could do. I could not take it from him without doing greater harm; and I had no right to do so anyway. I could only watch and wait. I might perhaps have consulted Saruman the White, but something always held me back.’
‘Who is he?’ asked Frodo. I have never heard of him before.’
‘Maybe not,’ answered Gandalf. ‘Hobbits are, or were, no concern of his. Yet he is great among the Wise. He is the chief of my order and the head of the Council. His knowledge is deep, but his pride has grown with it, and he takes ill any meddling. The lore of the Elven-rings, great and small, is his province. He has long studied it, seeking the lost secrets of their making; but when the Rings were debated in the Council, all that he would reveal to us of his ring-lore told against my fears. So my doubt slept - but uneasily. Still I watched and I waited.

Gandalf suspected Saruman for a long time, otherwise he would have consulted with him. So the supposed no-reason not to trust him is void. Look at that point in time in which Gandalf had strong doubts about Bilbo's ring, but as yet did nothing. And the sad thing is that Gandalf had the information at that time that Bilbo's ring was indeed Sauron's Ring.
From LOTR

The memory of words at the Council came back to me: words of Saruman, half-heeded at the time. I heard them now clearly in my heart.
` "The Nine, the Seven, and the Three," he said, "had each their proper gem. Not so the One. It was round and unadorned, as it were one of the lesser rings; but its maker set marks upon it that the skilled, maybe, could still see and read."

When did this Council occur? In 2953 TA, just 11 years after Bilbo had returned to the Shire with his ring. OOPS.

Bilbo's ring seemed very harmless. He stole it from a disgusting creature in a cave under the mountains (which the creature was using to hunt fish). It can turn him invisible... None of this points anywhere near the great Ring Sauron used to enslave the Nazgul. I don't find the situation of "Oh - Bilbo found a ring. Better make sure it's not Sauron's One Ring!" plausible (even ignoring the fact that the Ring was thought to be lost forever, washed into the sea). Gandalf does say magic rings are "rare and curious," but while rare, there were undoubtedly many more aside from the Rings of Power (and though there were 20, at the least 12 were accounted for). It took the Ring preserving his youth to throw up a flag.

No, in the last meeting of the White Council in 2953 TA, Gandalf knew that the One Ring had no gems, but was made to seem one of the lesser Rings. It was with this information that Gandalf went riding fast to Minas Tirith. But he seems that he just forgot about it.

This has, IMO, sufficiently answered by NightKnight and Legolas.

Not really.

Horrible excuse? Don't throw that at me! I'm just trying to find an explanation for this situation. The Elves present (after Isildur already had died) at the Gladden Fields were Thranduil's Wood Elves, not Elves from Rivendell. So, before the Disaster had reached Elrond's ears, several weeks would have past. Maybe he sent out a small party to seek for Isildur's remains, for all we know. Maybe not. As opposed to you, I do belief also Elrond's realm would have been in great turmoil. He and his army had away from home and hearth for the duration of the War of the Lat Alliance, which lasted a total of twelve years! After returning in Rivendell there would have been many pressing matters to attend to.
When all was 'normal' again in Rivendell, Arnor, and Gondor time had passed and people probably thought it no longer usefull to hunt for remains of Isildur, guessing he had been brought to sea by the River Anduin.

Let put it this way: Isildur died in the year 2 TA. In 2643 Déagol the Stoor finds the One Ring, and is murdered by Sméagol. Look at the obscene amount of time that passed between those two events. Elrond weds Celebrían in 109 TA.
It was because of the lack of interest coupled with the incompetence of the searchers that they didn't find anything. It was Elrond himself that talked to Isildur about destroying the Ring.

Gandalf went to Minas Tirith as soon as he had the idea that the answers he sought might be there.

Now I suppose he will be chided for not thinking of this sooner.

No. Lets examine the elements one more time:

1. Gandalf felt uneasy about Bilbo's ring.
2. In the last meeting of the White Council, Gandalf had the knowledge that Bilbo's ring description was similar that of Sauron.
Gandalf had all of the information that he needed to find out if Bilbo's was that of Sauron just 11 years after Bilbo returned to the Shire. If you don't think that there is a problem with Gandalf waiting an extra 64 years, then that is ok with me, but I think that it is just plain wrong.
The logical line of reasoning to me would be:
1. Bilbo is my friend.
2. I have a bad feeling about Bilbo's magic ring.
3. Bilbo's ring description and that of Sauron are similar.
4. Go and do some research about it yourself, for the sake of friendship!

think there is evidence (already noted above) that Elves and Men tried to search for Isildur’s body. However, just because they did not find it is not proof of incompetence. Consider, they were operating in hostile territory. It is true that the local orcs had lost a good deal, but they were probably still capable of pouncing upon small parties of searchers. Later, when Saruman was searching, he probably had an understanding with the local orcs, if indeed they were not working with him. Elves and Men had no particular reason to guard the area, so Saruman was able to search the area most carefully and with security. Just because Saruman found the body does not mean that it was easy to find. It might have been that it took him a very long time to uncover it. We don’t know when the body was found. Saruman began searching in 2851. The next we hear of it is in 2939 when Sauron starts searching the area. That gives Saruman considerable time to drag an unlimited number of bodies from the river.

I guess that that is as good an excuse as any that I will hear. If the wise could not mount an effective search for the most important artifact of the Age in more than 2000 years, they have to be incompetent.

[Kuruharan]

In the last meeting of the White Council, Gandalf had the knowledge that Bilbo's ring description was similar that of Sauron. Gandalf had all of the information that he needed to find out if Bilbo's was that of Sauron just 11 years after Bilbo returned to the Shire.

Incorrect. “Similar” is not “same.” Note the quote comparing it to the appearance of “lesser rings.” (As a side note, there had to be other lesser rings besides the dwarf, elf, and human rings. Each of those was described as having a particular gemstone. The point of comparison was that the One Ring had no gem. If it was compared to other rings lacking gemstones, there must have been other lesser rings of the same make to compare it to.)

Anyway, Gandalf was uncertain how to determine if the Ring was The One rather than one of the lesser rings. That is why he was trying to find Gollum for all those years. He hoped to find a clue. He did not know that fire would bring out the letters that would reveal the Ring until he read that in Minas Tirith. (And I don’t want to hear anything about Gandalf tossing the Ring into a fire beforehand just to see what would happen. I’m sure your first step in determining the properties of a unique item is to try to destroy it.) Just because the idea of trying to find some writing of Isildur in Minas Tirith did not occur to Gandalf until the hunt for Gollum appeared certain to prove fruitless does not make him incompetent. Not even wizards can think of everything all the time.

If the wise could not mount an effective search for the most important artifact of the Age in more than 2000 years, they have to be incompetent.

This statement is presenting a false either/or situation (particularly since you did not bother to answer the gist of my suggestion). This is not so simple a matter as to be an either/or. If the Wise are to be judged by such a standard then the standard must be applied to their Enemy as well. The obvious correlation is since Sauron failed to conquer the world in several millennia of trying, he has to be incompetent. He is also incompetent because it took him so long to figure out what had happened to the Ring.

If everyone in the tale is incompetent then competence ceases to have any meaning because nobody possesses it. It tends to render this whole discussion rather pointless.