The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books > Chapter-by-Chapter
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-19-2004, 01:55 PM   #1
Fordim Hedgethistle
Gibbering Gibbet
 
Fordim Hedgethistle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
Fordim Hedgethistle has been trapped in the Barrow!
Quote:
Alas, the pattern is broken in chapter 6 (as it had to be at some point, or we'd have quite an army by the end).
Ah, but in a way it's not -- for the hobbits encounter Tom Bombadil, who does not accompany them, but he does very much become a part of their quest. . .

But I get ahead of myself -- focus on this chapter, Fordim, this chapter.

(Should probably read it first, however. . .)
Fordim Hedgethistle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2004, 02:27 PM   #2
Bęthberry
Cryptic Aura
 
Bęthberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Bęthberry is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Boots Roll 'em

Quote:
Alas, the pattern is broken in chapter 6 (as it had to be at some point, or we'd have quite an army by the end).
Indeed, after six, that would be dicey indeed.

Okay, okay. sorry. I shall finish the chapter and return in more appropriate form, but I am not quite sure just what the great value is of this chapter. The bathtime hijinks reminded me of davem's observations about the writing process for earlier chapters and the silliness over upper stories.

For now, speaking of the poems as Estelyn does, I wanted to comment on Pippin's cavalier comment, "Oh, that was poetry," to Frodo. There really are a remarkable number of comments to the literariness of things here.
Bęthberry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2004, 09:27 PM   #3
Silmiel of Imladris
Shade of Carn Dűm
 
Silmiel of Imladris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Looking into a crystal ball- still see nothing
Posts: 395
Silmiel of Imladris has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Silmiel of Imladris
Silly me, I read most of this chapter thinking that Merry was with Frodo, Sam, and Pippin when they were traveling to crickhollow until Merry come up to them by the ferry. I haven't read the books in a while so I can't remember how some of this goes. I don't have much to say about this chapter since there wasn't an exorbinate amount going on. I know I am going to get it for this, but I never like this chapter and ones similar for I can't help thinking that it all centers around sitting down and eating, again! A hobbit wouldn't have very much luck with a low carb diet or any diet for that matter.
__________________
Legolas 20 ales later: I feel something, a slight tingling in my fingers. I think it's affecting me.

Figwit on his name: Are you suggesting that I have the wit of a fig?
Silmiel of Imladris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2004, 10:15 PM   #4
Boromir88
Laconic Loreman
 
Boromir88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 7,521
Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.Boromir88 is wading through the Dead Marshes.
Send a message via AIM to Boromir88 Send a message via MSN to Boromir88
1420! A Pudgy people

Most hobbits were pudgy. Frodo was really only the skinny hobbit and he said he was gaining weight since he hadn't walked in a while. Boyd and Monaghan were too skilly for Merry and Pip, however they did a great job acting.
Boromir88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2004, 03:53 AM   #5
Hilde Bracegirdle
Relic of Wandering Days
 
Hilde Bracegirdle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: You'll See Perpetual Change.
Posts: 1,480
Hilde Bracegirdle has just left Hobbiton.
Stress Relief

I think this chapter is less about eating and bath time hi-jinks, than trying to relax among friends for possibly the last time. At this point Frodo’s friends are bringing him comfort physically as well as mentally. And after all who wouldn’t sing at the prospect of a hot bath after two days stomping around being chased by those sinister riders. I know that I have been quite overcome with joy to find a brimming tub of hot water after ‘roughing it’, and probably sounded rather giddy too!

But the points I ponder most are: the dream, the description of where the house at Crickhollow is (it echoes Frodo's internal transition) and Merry’s vast organizational abilities!

Last edited by Hilde Bracegirdle; 07-20-2004 at 04:56 AM.
Hilde Bracegirdle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2004, 12:30 PM   #6
Tuor of Gondolin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles)
Posts: 1,548
Tuor of Gondolin has just left Hobbiton.
Originally posted by Davem
--------------------------------
"there is something in Unfinished Tales (The Hunt for the Ring) which is a bit puzzling:Quote:
My father nowhere explained the Ringwraiths’ fear of water....Thus of the rider (who was in fact Khamul of Dol Guldur*) seen on the far side of Bucklebury Ferry just after the hobbits had crossed it is said that ‘ he was well aware that the Ring had crossed the river; but the river was a barrier to his sense of movement’, & that the Nazgul would not touch the ‘elvish’ waters of Baranduin"
----------------------------------

If I could make a brief comment here, my first in the chapters discussion,
I've always been curious about CT's observation above, it seems to me an obvious possible reason for the Ringwraith's fear of water, and Sauron's various lads not using the sea (save for the allied Corsairs of Umbar, is implied in the Silmarillion, the power of Ulmo not just in the seas but in rivers and streams, especially versus the far weaker Sauron as opposed to Morgoth.
From Unfinished Tales
"The waters that run westward whither, and their springs are poisoned, and my power withdraws from the land."

In the Third Age, why wouldn't his power be dominant in major rivers like the Anduin and the Brandywine?

Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin; 07-22-2004 at 12:43 PM.
Tuor of Gondolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2004, 03:28 PM   #7
Fordim Hedgethistle
Gibbering Gibbet
 
Fordim Hedgethistle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
Fordim Hedgethistle has been trapped in the Barrow!
I made the mistake of saying about the last chapter that it was “slight” and not very interesting – then we ended up having not just one of the most interesting discussions in the CbC forum to date, but even spawning our first spin-off thread!

Determined not to make the same mistake twice, I dove into “A Conspiracy Unmasked” determined to find matters that might give it a bit more weight. What I found myself remarking upon was the oddly dark undercurrents to the chapter. It takes place entirely at night, and the descriptions of the night and dark surrounding the house seemed consistently to set off the smallness of the light contained within. This is no return to the relative safety of Bag End like we found at the beginning. Frodo comments that his things have been arranged to make it “look like home,” but of course it cannot look like home for it is not home. I think beneath the comfort and cheer of the songs and the food, there is a terrible melancholy as Frodo’s now-houseless existence is being ironically underscored by this ‘moving in.’ Compare the sense of transience and danger of this chapter to the warmth and safety of Farmer Maggot’s house – Frodo is indeed upon the very edge of his adventure and his journey: this last stopping place in the Shire is only a stop-over, a home he cannot enjoy, and a place where he can only rest up for the trials ahead. I think that it is entirely fitting and right that he should have a dream which foreshadows his final home (looking to the Sea and the west). That dream is another melancholy note, and it ends this chapter in which the hobbits try so hard to maintain a tone of bright happiness.

I think that this is what I found most striking about this chapter: the hobbits are being very hobbitty, but unlike the Party with which the book began, it all seems so much more fragile here. Now that Frodo has completed the first part of his journey and he and his companions are aware of the dangers (and glories) that exist beyond the Shire, their attempt to make themselves ‘at home’ is doomed to failure. They have already been changed, irrevocably, by their experiences, and I find that very sad in a way.

There’s another interesting echo between the hobbits and the Nazgűl, I think (again, with the echoes!). Merry, Pippin, Fatty and Sam have been “unmasked” – this evokes I think the ‘masks’ that the Nazgűl wear at all times and can never take off. Also, the hobbits are in a “conspiracy”; this is a loaded term – one “conspires” against another. I am not suggesting that the hobbits are against Frodo in any way (quite the opposite), but the choice of this word for the chapter title (and they use it themselves) highlights both the connections and contrasts between these two groups.

When we do this, the whole chapter gives us a new view of the Shire – or, rather, a clearer view of the Shire. At the beginning of the book, hobbits were eating and singing and being very silly and charming and it was all lovely and enjoyable. Unbeknownst to them (and to the reader) however, there were these terrible forces of darkness closing in upon them from all sides, drawn by the power of an evil object possessed by a hobbit who was a bit of an outsider in the community, but still a part of the community. In this chapter we have precisely the same situation – with the hobbits inside singing their bath songs and eating mushrooms, and the Nazgűl on the outside, drawn by the power of the Ring – but it all feels so very different, perhaps even wrong. The hobbits (and the reader) have now learned to see their world the way others have for centuries (the Elves, Gandalf, the Rangers); they are aware of the danger and the darkness, and their hobbitty ways are somehow a bit sillier than they were formerly. It’s like growing out of our childhood games. Once you’ve seen what a real gun will do to a person, who wants to play ‘cowboys and Indians’? This chapter, for me, marks the loss of innocence for Frodo. The sense of the disconnect that already exists between Frodo and his community is palpable throughout the chapter. He is going away, probably (he thinks) forever.

At the same time, however, this new and greater awareness gives the hobbits their first chance to show what they are capable of, since not only their silliness is set off against the darkness of reality, but so are the bonds of friendship and goodwill that hold them together. It’s one thing to stand by your friends when your biggest concern is wrangling for that last mushroom…it’s an altogether different thing when you are being chased by the Nine.

I’m not silly enough to do the former, and I’m not brave enough to do the latter. That’s how I know I’m not a hobbit…

Last edited by Fordim Hedgethistle; 07-20-2004 at 03:32 PM.
Fordim Hedgethistle is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:51 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.