And Eru Smiled - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Evisse the Blue · 07-24-2004, 05:20 AM

If I'd wanted to be really sarcatic I'd say: "Thus, the vicious circle of suffering is completed. Melkor suffers because he's evil, the others suffer because he's evil, Eru watches mercifully over all."
But as I did a little more thinking, I realized that putting an end to this neverending misery rests not with the good, but the evil: should Melkor use his free will and decide to be good, it would all end, and he would himself be pardoned. Makes sense. Eru did think of everything. (as did Tolkien).

Lhunardawen · 07-25-2004, 12:07 AM

But it could also end in another way. Should Melkor and his minions choose to remain contending with the will of Eru (which they did, I think), the good would have to take the matter into their hands and act upon this "war" once and for all to end it. Eru could finally stop being passive and use his omnipotence to destroy evil, however he will do it. Nothing was evil in its beginning. Even Melkor was not so. It could be that no evil will remain in the end. Since Eru put everything into existence--even evil, but just indirectly--he could probably choose to put something out of existence if it would be for the good of all.

Oh my, I'm actually working with just speculations here.

Son of Númenor · 07-25-2004, 08:04 PM

Quote:

2: Because of the corruption of some created beings, evil exists as (primarily) greed, pride, and fear (from which flow hate, etc.) and drives thoseof it to attempt to separate themselves and be independant of Eru. This constitutes a sort of spiritual suicide, since all existence is a part of Eru. (Iarwain)

I perfectly agree with this, particularly the part about evil's want to be independent of Eru and the emotions/'sins' that you pinpoint as the manifestations of evil. In some of these topics, threads seem to stray far into the abstract and philosophical, but your theory, and this part in particular, is very well-grounded in Tolkien's beliefs about his world, imho.

I do not understand, however, your suggestion that Melkor had "remnants of goodness" within him. It says in the Silm (which is conveniently packed away in my luggage in the car so that I cannot quote from it) that Melkor's evil is complete and utter, and that he has become so corrupt that any chance of his thinking a 'good' thought (much less doing a good deed) is beyond hope. This, actually, raises an interesting question: does exercising one's will in an 'evil' way, to become independent of Eru and attempt (as in the cases of Sauron, Melkor, Saruman) to become an omnipotent tyrant, in the end ultimately negate one's Eru-given 'free will'? Does this wilful act of rebellion put an end to the 'free will' so that, as in the case of Melkor, the rebel can no longer act out of goodness, and is utterly controlled by evil?

Lhunardawen · 07-25-2004, 08:49 PM

I belive you are right, Son of Numenor. Melkor could have had the false sense of free will, but used it entirely for evil. And without realizing it, he himself is controlled by his desire to wreak havoc in Arda, and all his actions became bent on that desire.

Sauron, however, had the chance to turn his back from this, only he did not. He still had his free will, but when he chose to continue the evil works of his master, he had totally and finally forsaken it. Not that I could blame him, for the seeds of evil were sown deep into his heart.

Encaitare · 07-26-2004, 11:05 AM

Awesome point, Iarwain. That's actually how I view God/dess, Spirit, the Guy in the Sky, or whatever you want to call that supreme being we all try and get to like us. And I believe it works here, too. The Song does come from Eru/Ilúvatar, and all parts or themes of it come from him/it as well. Therefore, I guess that Eru is neither good nor evil, he simply is everything. (Though this is not to say that he supports Morgoth in any way

) Good and evil need each other to survive, I think, because they play off and feed off of each other. No doubt Eru could destroy Morgoth or any other evil in a second, but he's wise enough to realize that this would throw off the balance that good and evil have, and this would basically wreak havoc on the world. (And as an afterthought, someone else evil would come along later anyway... how cyclic life is...)

07-24-2004, 05:20 AM	#1
Evisse the Blue Brightness of a Blade Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: wherever I may roam Posts: 2,685	If I'd wanted to be really sarcatic I'd say: "Thus, the vicious circle of suffering is completed. Melkor suffers because he's evil, the others suffer because he's evil, Eru watches mercifully over all." But as I did a little more thinking, I realized that putting an end to this neverending misery rests not with the good, but the evil: should Melkor use his free will and decide to be good, it would all end, and he would himself be pardoned. Makes sense. Eru did think of everything. (as did Tolkien). __________________ And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass.

07-25-2004, 12:07 AM	#2
Lhunardawen Hauntress of the Havens Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IN it, but not OF it Posts: 2,538	But it could also end in another way. Should Melkor and his minions choose to remain contending with the will of Eru (which they did, I think), the good would have to take the matter into their hands and act upon this "war" once and for all to end it. Eru could finally stop being passive and use his omnipotence to destroy evil, however he will do it. Nothing was evil in its beginning. Even Melkor was not so. It could be that no evil will remain in the end. Since Eru put everything into existence--even evil, but just indirectly--he could probably choose to put something out of existence if it would be for the good of all. Oh my, I'm actually working with just speculations here.

07-25-2004, 08:49 PM	#4
Lhunardawen Hauntress of the Havens Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IN it, but not OF it Posts: 2,538	I belive you are right, Son of Numenor. Melkor could have had the false sense of free will, but used it entirely for evil. And without realizing it, he himself is controlled by his desire to wreak havoc in Arda, and all his actions became bent on that desire. Sauron, however, had the chance to turn his back from this, only he did not. He still had his free will, but when he chose to continue the evil works of his master, he had totally and finally forsaken it. Not that I could blame him, for the seeds of evil were sown deep into his heart.

07-26-2004, 11:05 AM	#5
Encaitare Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise Posts: 1,814	Awesome point, Iarwain. That's actually how I view God/dess, Spirit, the Guy in the Sky, or whatever you want to call that supreme being we all try and get to like us. And I believe it works here, too. The Song does come from Eru/Ilúvatar, and all parts or themes of it come from him/it as well. Therefore, I guess that Eru is neither good nor evil, he simply is everything. (Though this is not to say that he supports Morgoth in any way ) Good and evil need each other to survive, I think, because they play off and feed off of each other. No doubt Eru could destroy Morgoth or any other evil in a second, but he's wise enough to realize that this would throw off the balance that good and evil have, and this would basically wreak havoc on the world. (And as an afterthought, someone else evil would come along later anyway... how cyclic life is...)