Saruman Ring-maker

[Morsul the Dark]

not really i liked that pun but as for the theory I never thought of it like that it's very nifty good job!

[luthien-elvenprincess]

Excellent pun, Lachwen!!!

Concerning option #3: I don't think that Sarumen was subordinate to Sauron, either with his ring or without it. He didn't follow Sauron's orders, but worked events in an attempt to gain power for himself. He was influenced more by evil than by Sauron.

[Vanya]

Well, when I said subordinate, I ment Ring, not Saruman; If Saruman's ring was subordinate to the One, since craft needed for forging of it origins in the Second Age, when others were made in Eregion.

It is good point mentioning Aule, because it is significant to this problem; it seems that dealing with forces of the earth is job that easily can turn into evil, since the biggest diference betwen good and evil is how they treat MATERY; in the point when wise man or spirit starts to act in order to gain welth, power, and leaves spiritual path, he easily turns to Evil - he falls into morghotism.

[Vanya]

Well, as for Grima, we had a small discusion, and came to conclusion that it is not likely that Grima wore a ring made for him by Saruman, in order to have strong influence on Theoden. In that case not only Theoden would be afected, but all the other rohirrim as well would be. And he was not called the Wormtongue for nothing - he was seen through. And besides, Saruman's Voice was mighty wheapon, it could influence Nazguls, an wiser persons than Grima, he didn't need the Ring for that purpose.

Ther is another point that you should reconsider. In the VII book HoME, the same scene as in Council of Elrond is told, but Ring-making is not mentioned.

“I came to the great gate in the wall of rock and they said that Saruman
expected me,(34) and I rode in, and the gate closed behind, and a
sudden fear came on me.
'Saruman was there but he had changed. He wore a ring on
his finger. "So you have come, Gandalf," he said to me, and I
seemed to see a deadly laughter in his eyes. "Yes, I have come
for your aid, Saruman the White." But that title seemed to fill
him with anger. "For aid?" he said coldly. "It is seldom heard
that Gandalf the Grey sought for aid, one so cunning and so
wise, wandering about the lands, and concerning himself in
every business, be it his own or others".'
'"But now matters are afoot," I said, "that need all our
strengths [?in union]. The Chief of the Nine is guised as a Rider
in Black and his companions likewise. This Radagast told me."
'"Radagast the Brown," he said, and shook with laughter.
"Radagast the Simple, Radagast the Fool. [Added in pencil: Yet
he had just the wits to play the part that I set him.] He must
have played his part well nonetheless. For here you are [added
in pencil: and that is the purpose of the message]. And, Gandalf
the Grey, here you will stay. FOR I AM SARUMAN: SARUMAN THE WISE, SARUMAN OF MANY COLOURS. For white cloth may be dyed,
and the white page overwritten, and the white light broken."
[Pencilled in margin without direction for insertion: And I
looked then and saw that his robes were not white as had been
his custom, but were of many hues, and with every movement
he changed hue.]

And in the Foreword of the LOTR, Tolkien says:
"Saruman, failing to get possesion of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler ofMiddle-earth."

Since this never happend, we can make a conclusion that he NEVER DID FIND those missing links he needed, and therefore was not able to make one (or he could make some insignificant ring)

[Tuor of Gondolin]

"And in the Foreword of the LOTR, Tolkien says:
"Saruman, failing to get possesion of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth." "
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Interesting. Recall that Tolkien started a sequel but gave it up. Perhaps if he had had Saruman survive he could have been the focal point for the sequel, perhaps basing himself in Middle-earth south or east and suborning some of the other dwarf houses, thereby ticking off Gimli.

[Vanya]

This Quote is alsi interesting, since it tells about Saruman's abbilities:


“Gandalf says of the 'fell captain of the Nine' that he was 'a great king of old'; and of Saruman he
says:

... For Saruman the White is, as some of you know, the greatest
of my craft, and was the leader in the White Council.... But
Saruman long studied the arts of the Enemy, and was thus often
able to defeat him; and the lore of rings was one of his chief
studies. He knew much of the history [of the rings of power >]
of the Nine Rings and the Seven, and somewhat even of the
Three and the One; and it was at one time rumoured that he had come near the secret of their making.”

NEAR, yes, but it seems that he secretly did make a breakthrough.

And, inconsistance in use of term RING MAKER in Council of Elrond, and complete lack of it later on, indicates that maybe it was an idea abbandoned on the way.

How come that, when Gandalf broke Saruman's staff, he didn't take, or mention his ring (even in sarcastic way?)?

[Voralphion]

I think the ring of Saruman didn't have much, if any power. He often seemed to be deluding himself in regards to his own skill and power. He knew much of the lore of the rings and ringmaking and probably though that he could himself make a ring and use it to defeat Sauron and rule middle earth himself. His lore of the rings of power however was lacking and so any ring made by him would not have the power of the either the 9,7,3 or 1. It was probably similar to the lesser rings originally made by the elves of Eregion. At the time of the war of the ring, only Sauron had the knowledge to make rings of power and I doubt he would have given that knowledge to Saruman.