Tolkien the Matricide - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Child of the 7th Age · 04-22-2002, 06:18 PM

Birdland--Sorry I didn't get back sooner. The "real world" has been sadly intruding on my computer time. Of course, I don't mind you disagreeing!! He, He....sharpens dagger under skirt..... actually, it was off the top of my head and I honestly haven't given it deep thought. It is obviously true that many, many heroes have lost one or more parents. And generally that means the mother or both mother and father. It's quite rare that the father hits the dust before the mother.

I have a complete and original Brothers' Grimm (very gory stuff) that has about 200 plus stories. When I glanced through it and looked for stories about death of parent(tons of them), I would say it's about one-third complete orphan and two-thirds loss of mother (only a handful of death of father). Now, the other interesting phenomenon here is the stepmother. Of those who lose mothers, an enormous percentage of the fathers remarry and get a really nasty wife who generally abuses the child! Then the mom kind of takes over the ship and there is a second symbolic (or actual) death of the father figure. So as far as traditional fairy is concerned, or at least Grimm, there is a further complication of the motif of death of mom and that's coming of MONSTER MOM. (Now I could analyze that from a feminist perspective, but I won't.) Since Tolkien's characters do not remarry (are there any at all?), missing mom is a common motif, but monster step-mom is missing. I believe I read somewhere that Tolkien didn't like Grimm and I'm sure he wasn't comfortable with a theme such as this one.

As far as Tolkien's own story, making Frodo an orphan not only brings him to Bilbo's house, but is another one of those factors that sets him aside as being "odd" in the eyes of the Shire....an outsider with a suspect origin which is the subject of at least some gossip.

It doesn't bother me when authors plug into these common achetypes or motifs as long as they do it in service of their own themes and ideas. I have seen instances in fantasy where the hero is a woman or girl and she thinks about and/or acts on ideas her mother gave her, much like Sam is always remembering his father. Look at the renunciates or amazons in the Darkover world or even the laran gifted women--there are many examples of that in the series. Of course, that series is written by a woman. I wonder if there are other examples like that in works done by men (surely there must be some). sharon, the 7th age hobbit

04-22-2002, 06:18 PM	#15
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Birdland--Sorry I didn't get back sooner. The "real world" has been sadly intruding on my computer time. Of course, I don't mind you disagreeing!! He, He....sharpens dagger under skirt..... actually, it was off the top of my head and I honestly haven't given it deep thought. It is obviously true that many, many heroes have lost one or more parents. And generally that means the mother or both mother and father. It's quite rare that the father hits the dust before the mother. I have a complete and original Brothers' Grimm (very gory stuff) that has about 200 plus stories. When I glanced through it and looked for stories about death of parent(tons of them), I would say it's about one-third complete orphan and two-thirds loss of mother (only a handful of death of father). Now, the other interesting phenomenon here is the stepmother. Of those who lose mothers, an enormous percentage of the fathers remarry and get a really nasty wife who generally abuses the child! Then the mom kind of takes over the ship and there is a second symbolic (or actual) death of the father figure. So as far as traditional fairy is concerned, or at least Grimm, there is a further complication of the motif of death of mom and that's coming of MONSTER MOM. (Now I could analyze that from a feminist perspective, but I won't.) Since Tolkien's characters do not remarry (are there any at all?), missing mom is a common motif, but monster step-mom is missing. I believe I read somewhere that Tolkien didn't like Grimm and I'm sure he wasn't comfortable with a theme such as this one. As far as Tolkien's own story, making Frodo an orphan not only brings him to Bilbo's house, but is another one of those factors that sets him aside as being "odd" in the eyes of the Shire....an outsider with a suspect origin which is the subject of at least some gossip. It doesn't bother me when authors plug into these common achetypes or motifs as long as they do it in service of their own themes and ideas. I have seen instances in fantasy where the hero is a woman or girl and she thinks about and/or acts on ideas her mother gave her, much like Sam is always remembering his father. Look at the renunciates or amazons in the Darkover world or even the laran gifted women--there are many examples of that in the series. Of course, that series is written by a woman. I wonder if there are other examples like that in works done by men (surely there must be some). sharon, the 7th age hobbit __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.