distortions in relationships in LOTR

[Isowen]

I have never seen an example of this on the Barrow-Downs and it seems ,yare nande, that you have read many more threads than I have here, though I usually stick to Novices and Newcomers. I think nobody has the right to distort relationships within lotr, but maybe it could be considered an opinion being voiced, rather than a distortion of relationships.

[Evisse the Blue]

I'll censor myself a little as not to sound accusing, especially with so few smilies at hand.
I have trouble understanding why anyone with writing talent and abilities and appreciation for Tolkien's words to boot would want to slash Tolkien's characters. I mean, why not create your own characters and slash them? If you agree that slash is not cannon then what you have is out-of-character writing: the characters may bear Tolkien's given names but they not their personality. In other words, why not create your own story, set in a fantasy world to explore the implications of slash on identity crisis, etc. Sorry of I appear to be picking on you particularly, Maril, but I am actually expressing a dissatisfaction with the slash fanfics I read. The badly written ones posed no problem to me as I left unfinished, the well-written ones were much worse because they seemed a paradox: it's plausible but it's impossible. Perhaps I should also add that cannon means a lot to me: Part of the charm of LOTR is that it's written by Tolkien: he was a talented, very learned man, and he has the ultimate say when it comes to his creation. At least that's how I see it. That's my opinion about all non cannon writing, be it slash or other unusual pairings.

About slash specifically, and why so many people are trying to reinterpret great works as containing same-sex relationships (especially when it's clear that the writer did not intend it) - I think it's part of this whole campaign of making homosexuality acceptable: let's associate it with a popular thing, even if it's only for laughs, people will come to tolerate gays more like this. Well, I don't know about others but I find myself much more tolerant toward gays when these tasteless jokes are not being made. If anything, it has the opposite effect...

[Lyta_Underhill]

I have trouble understanding why anyone with writing talent and abilities and appreciation for Tolkien's words to boot would want to slash Tolkien's characters. I mean, why not create your own characters and slash them? If you agree that slash is not cannon then what you have is out-of-character writing: the characters may bear Tolkien's given names but they not their personality.

Ever a controversy, isn't it? My own personal view is that if one were to "slash" Tolkien's characters and stay true to Tolkien, there would still be the absence of the lust factor. The friendships would remain, and the rest would be perhaps implied but not explicated. If anyone has seen the outstanding film "Gods and Monsters" with the inimitable Sir Ian McKellen (one of his finest roles!), you might remember James Whale's flashbacks to World War One and how the element of his homosexuality was intertwined with his hectic friendships in the thick of battle, how the images came back to him at the end, etc.; I think such an element is present but suppressed in the everyday, a sort of subtext for life. Only a few choose to make it a theme. With Frodo and Sam, this is not the theme. It is the friendship and sacrifice which is stressed foremost. But I don't fault anyone for wishing to explore this hidden theme, however absent it may be in Tolkien's focus in Lord of the Rings. But, as we say over in the 'Canonicity' thread, it ain't canon! (One might argue that such a theme is a subtext of the cultural history of British Public School, but it is probably not good to go there, especially since I'm not British--I did read an interesting overview of this 'culture' in an autobiographical work of C.S. Lewis' once, though, so it isn't illusory!)

Cheers and Tally-ho!
Lyta (NOT a Brit, but occasionally mistaken for one)

[Encaitare]

As a slash fan and occasional slash writer, I would just like to say that the intent is not to disrespect Professor Tolkien's work. Some people look at Sam and Frodo and say, "Oh, they're so obviously gay." I think I can safely speak for most slashfans when I say that I don't honestly believe that they were lovers -- but what if they were? It's simply the "what-if?" aspect that we enjoy. I know that purists tend to have an extreme dislike for anything of an AU nature, but I'm openminded towards pretty much anything, even stuff I don't agree with, as long as it's written well.

I write slash because it is outside of canon. It's a challenge for me as a writer to build plausibility for it, to keep true to the flavor and voice of Tolkien while ranging far afield.

-- Well said, Marileangorifurnimaluim!

I mean, why not create your own characters and slash them?

--Evisse

Oh, it shall happen, as soon as I get ideas...

And I believe someone, possibly Marileangorifurnimaluim, said that guys seemed skeeved out by the closeness of Sam and Frodo and the concept of slash... and yet many guys adore femme-slash. Gee, I wonder why...

As for Legolas and Gimli... well, it's... interesting.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

I think I can safely speak for most slashfans when I say that I don't honestly believe that they were lovers -- but what if they were? It's simply the "what-if?" aspect that we enjoy.

Yes. How would that work in such a prudish and conservative society? How would they react? If they even knew. I did research into attitudes towards homosexuality before the creation of the term, as I believe Tolkien's world wouldn't even consider the possibility.

Historically, it turned out that among the upper classes it was considered an "eccentricity," and was only gossiped about behind closed doors. People of lower classes had a much rougher time, as they had less control over their destinies.

In sense it was freer, as people were more innocent and didn't notice obvious signs. It was viewed (if known at all) not as a classification of people, but as something unusual about that one individual.

Also, the lines were more blurred, because without the concept "gay," there wasn't the worry, "Oh no, if I hug a man I must be gay." So back then, lines were crossed, and there wasn't the emotional turmoil of redefining oneself based on one or another incident. I was surprised to find that it was viewed as a 'boys will be boys' sort of thing -- up until adulthood. Then one had obligations to the family. The social expectations were the main issue. One would never "come out" to ones family because one didn't talk about *ahem* 'the birds and the bees.' The answer to such a confession would be: "You come of age on such and such date. We've arranged a marriage with such and so. We realise you are in your tweens and sowing a few wild oats, but it is past time for you to be responsible. We expect grandchildren within the year."

The roles in society and family expectations become very complex. Then, with class distinctions, you have the power imbalance between someone of a wealthy class and someone whose family is poor: how can one keep the friendship from being destroyed in the process? Would there be a choice to end this to preserve the friendship? What is the internal impact of crossing so many lines?

Sorry, didn't mean to run on there.

I mean, why not create your own characters and slash them?

--Evisse

Evisse, that's the argument usually used to dismiss all fanfiction. "Why not just write your own characters?" I think any writer's jaw would go slack at that sentiment.

That said, of course I do.

- Maril

[Evisse the Blue]

Evisse, that's the argument usually used to dismiss all fanfiction.

I have yet to see how this argument can be used to dismiss fanfic that's within cannon limits, e.g. missing scene fics, vignettes, character musings, etc. Those kind of writings develop the characters' depth within the limits imposed by the original writer and they can be really challenging and fun.

[Encaitare]

Indeed they are, Evisse! It's tons of fun to expand on a story while staying within the lines on canon and it's great practice for a writer -- but you can only do that for so long.

And I have decided if we made our own characters and "slashed" them... then it wouldn't be slash, it would be canon.

[E. Fester]

I write slash occasionally, and read it, although I have to say that there aren't many authors worth reading.

I don't interpret Frodo and Sam's relationship to be anything more than an extremely strong friendship; they kiss, hold hands, etc., more than most friends, but people need physical contact. It's as simple as that. Going without any form of physical contact is extremely lonely, especially if you're trying to save the world

I don't have anything against slash if it's well-written, the characters are interesting and the relationships are well-done. What I dislike is fangirl gratification--girls who just want to see their objects of lust in bed together, without any thought as to what they find attractive about each other. It's boring, predictable, 2-dimensional, and immensely irritating (i.e. the slash equivalent of a romance novel). The emotional factor is necessary; physical attraction is too, but that's no excuse for graphic PWP.

I like slash. That's a fact. I like het (although I don't read it, only write it). Also a fact. I just like character interaction, both in friendships and romantic relationships. I understand why some people dislike slash; I used to, strongly, as the only slashfic I read was (unfortunately) in the 'Humour' section. The piece that got me interested in slash was short, extremely well-written, and rated PG-13. It's still one of my favourites.

The main argument against slash is that it's uncanon. But really, most fanfiction is. Even writing about a canon event from one character's point of view--which I think is called a POV fic--may be uncanon to an extent, because there's no way of telling if the original author would approve of the portrayal of his character.

Fanfiction (with the possible exception of parody) is a tribute to the author. It shows that you like and admire the characters and find them interesting. And while I find some of Tolkien's characters slightly tedious, I think some of them are a work of genius.

On that note, I haven't slashed LotR.

Originally Posted by Evisse the Blue

I mean, why not create your own characters and slash them?

I do

[Lyta_Underhill]

No fic writer I've ever seen has shown the talent of Sophocles, in other words, I've yet to see a Tolkien fic that is so well written, be it slash or no, that the sheer artistic merit of the work would justify its 'non-canonicity' (if that's a word )

I personally do not believe that a work need be a perfect copy nor be flawless to be "justified." A fanfiction does not need to ask justification from the primary author. I simply prefer those that ring true to the style and outlook I perceive to be "Tolkienesque."

There are degrees of canonical bend, and the way I imagine Tolkien, he would have hated slash fics, be them well-written

There is a danger in this as well, as the "what would Tolkien think?" impulse could conceivably hamper an individual's creative impulses. In fact, I think this is one thing that keeps my nascent fanfictions incomplete. In the world of Middle Earth, Tolkien reigns supreme in my eyes and I have the desire to at least respect his presented outlook and model my words upon his expressed ideas. However, the danger arises when we start to say "Tolkien would not have approved of this or that" and the second-guessing and uncertainty sets in for a would-be writer.

If the writer discards the need to remain true to Tolkien's conception in every particular, then there is more freedom to create. And since I consider all fanfiction to be "non-canon" anyway, I see no need for the restriction to be placed. There are so many uncertainties in Tolkien's world that the creative spark is endlessly struck. Many hidden realms exist within his sub-created and delineated one, and once another writer touches it, it becomes a variation, an interpretive work, and the individual view of truth within the sub-reality may be stretched for some and violated for others.

Non-canon fic is a hurricane which shatters this delicate balance simply to see where the uprooted pieces would land and what the overall effect would be. The problem is that, by uprooting these pieces, (read characters), they lose their initial meaning, therefore all their world loses meaning.

I can see how this effect occurs, but I always attributed it to bad writing, a jarring of the reader outside the carefully woven subrealm. Personally, I think a well-written fanfiction can enrich the realm, even if it is non-canon (which in almost all cases it is, leaving out the sticky wicket of CJT). The badfics do not, in my opinion, have enough power in them to wield hurricane strength destructive force. They become simply a child's view of a larger realm, an imperfect or blurry picture, a heavy filter through a brain that has not adequately communicated or word-painted the aspects that make Middle Earth appealing to the reader in question. But to attribute approval and/or disapproval to the maker himself is a dangerous thing. For all judgement filters through the mind of the one making this assertion. Thus, this topic is highly subjective. It would be good for all to remember that this is inevitable and allow for it.

Cheers!
Lyta

[Encaitare]

I can see where you're going with this, by the way. I know that slash is usually presented as AU. Huzzah.

Well, I wasn't trying to attack you with your own words or anything, just curious.

To appease the liberal masses, I will admit I have read some slash. A couple were quite well written, and I respect that. The ones that are more emotionally based rather than erotically based are a bit better, in my opinion.

Well done, there, Sapphire! I can definitely respect that you gave it a shot and then formed your opinion based on that. Seems a bit fairer to me. And yeah, the erotic stuff... yech. Sometimes really, really unnecessary. I personally prefer just to explore the emotional bit.

Seems we've mostly reached an understanding, and sorry if I did get "PMSy" at ya, Sapphire. I guess I'm just a wholehearted defender of the slash.

~Encaitare

[Evisse the Blue]

On the topic of all fanfic being non-canon: I cannot agree to such a simplistic view; it's like saying that every one of us is guilty because of the original sin. Some are more innocent than others, and that's how some fics are more canon than others. As for not being able to guess what a character would have thought in a certain situation: that depends on a writer's psychological insight. We all make guesses about what goes on in each other's minds, and the better we know that person, the more accurate these guesses are.
When I read a fic that's well-written and does not stray from canon, I get a feeling of authenticity, while when I read a well-written slash fic, for instance, (to get back on topic), the feeling is that of frustration and confusion. And that's not because I have something against slash (slash fic directed at other fandoms in which slash is conceivable is okay, slash fic in Tolkien's world is like puting an elephant in a china store).

I realise how this debate may turn into an endless reiteration of divergent opinions, so I'll try to stay away from this topic from now on unless I think of some really strong arguments to prove my point.

[Sapphire_Flame]

I can definitely respect that you gave it a shot and then formed your opinion based on that. Seems a bit fairer to me.

Me too. ^ ^

So in that case, anything so blatantly against his values is disrespectful and I don't see anything around it, no matter how serious or circumspect a certain story is. (This is similar to the way movieFaramir still bothers me because I don’t think the filmmakers can satisfactorily explain going diametrically opposite to Tolkien’s acknowledged feelings about the character, even if the EE makes him a more sympathetic sort).

***

I just don’t see as how Sophocles or Beowulf or world mythology in general really proves the point that slash can be a serious addition to Tolkien’s novels. Especially since they are just that: novels. Culturally significant novels, surely, but still the work and property of one man, based on established archtypes and myths, not a new myth itself. That, in my opinion, makes it less malleable...

*applauds* Very well stated, Diamond. I highly agree with your opinions here.

slash fic directed at other fandoms in which slash is conceivable is okay, slash fic in Tolkien's world is like puting an elephant in a china store

*grin* Nice analogy, Evisse.

Abedithon le,

~ Saphy ~

[Lyta_Underhill]

On the topic of all fanfic being non-canon: I cannot agree to such a simplistic view; it's like saying that every one of us is guilty because of the original sin.

I stand guilty of having a simplistic view of the universe and its concepts, but over the years, I have come to realize that simplistic does not necessarily equal naive or erroneous (although inevitably incomplete, as all single views of the universe are). The statement of non-canonicity of fanfiction is stated as an absolute, but it is not necessarily set in stone. I suppose it depends on what your definition of "canonicity" is, and even that can be subject to change over time, as CJT's compilations and educated interpretations slowly become incorporated into the primary works of the Tolkien universe. But, then again, I do not consider CJT's works to be fanfiction; they are a mixture of editorial and "historical" writing that is more a chronicle than a new story or collection of new stories. His is the work of a literary archaeologist and not that of a fiction writer.

If one were to admit some fanfictions into the arena of "canon," then one must open up the doors of mythology to this evolutionary process and admit that Tolkien's world belongs to all of us and the world of Middle Earth is as a real Faerie realm that can be influenced by a worthy wit. I am not averse to this idea, but, as you said earlier, Evisse, I haven't seen the equal of Sophocles writing on www.fanfiction.net, for instance. (Then again, I don't get out much and haven't read as widely as many others). I have read some stories that capture most of the ambience of Tolkien's universe, but I understand them to be "missing stories," variations and inspirations, rather than candidates for canonical works. This doesn't decrease their worth or beauty in my eyes, however. I personally agree with you about the slash factor in Middle Earth, at least where it pertains to the characters as written by Tolkien. But I do allow that others may have different views. Fictions based on what I perceive to be proper characterization (slash-free) are, in my view, just as "non-canon" as those that incorporate slash or other character variations. The former simply pleases me better, while the latter makes me scratch my head (although the humorous ones are easier to read because I understand they are take-offs from the very beginning).

Some are more innocent than others, and that's how some fics are more canon than others.

This statement implies a judgement on the material from a subjective point of view, unless the terms "innocent" and "canon" are objectively defined. One's view of "canon" will define how close a work is to the concepts delineated as "canon," and one's view of innocence will determine how close a person is to being innocent. For that matter, one's view of beautiful will determine how close a work is to meeting those standards of beauty. It is all in the eye of the beholder, and that is why I defend the freedom of the writer, regardless of what "canon" may mean. (My definition of "canon" is simply my own view and does not reflect any official standard.)

So in that case, anything so blatantly against his values is disrespectful and I don't see anything around it, no matter how serious or circumspect a certain story is. (This is similar to the way movieFaramir still bothers me because I don’t think the filmmakers can satisfactorily explain going diametrically opposite to Tolkien’s acknowledged feelings about the character, even if the EE makes him a more sympathetic sort).

I can see your point, Diamond, if one restricts the playing field to perceived values of the author of a realm, and I, for one, respect my conception of Tolkien's values to the extent that I can't seem to finish writing a fanfiction, much less write one with slashed characters. This respect has kept my hands out of his world, except for analysis and rhapsody, but I believe that there is room for such things, as evidenced by the RPG forums. (I understand there are rules of conduct there that limit straying into the controversial realms, but the door is opened, if you take my meaning.) And, yes, I agree with you about movieFaramir; I wasn't satisfied with the expanded "Apology for Faramir" in the TTT:EE either, as it turned him into simply an emotional child vying for his father's love, rather than an independent, wise and faithful Captain of Gondor who valued the Good over the survival of the Realm. But certainly there are some who take the PJ movie "fanfictions" as canon out there, even if they play around with Tolkien's concepts and characters. I don't accord them such status, but I also believe they are justified as the respectful variation/interpretation of other writers. And they remain imperfect. But I can be entertained by them, while suspending my disbelief in the changes in characterization and storyline.

I suppose I've rambled on waaay too long now! I hope some of this makes sense, and I welcome divergent opinions; that is part of what keeps conversation interesting!

Cheers!
Lyta

[E. Fester]

Originally Posted by Evisse the Blue

On the topic of all fanfic being non-canon: I cannot agree to such a simplistic view; it's like saying that every one of us is guilty because of the original sin.

I'm not trying to dismiss your opinion, but I honestly can't see the link. IMO, fanfic isn't really canon because it's not written by the author.

Nothing's simple. That's why I write.

Originally Posted by Evisse the Blue

Some are more innocent than others, and that's how some fics are more canon than others.

My personal belief is that no one is innocent, and that some fics are more canon than others, but none of them are entirely canon, however good the fic's writer. That's just me, though. And I like the loss of innocence.