Paired characters in LotR - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 08-23-2004, 01:51 AM

First of all, anyone who wants to read the essay I mentioned:Warm beds are good can download it as a PDF here:http://www.ansereg.com/warm_beds_are_good.htm

I wonder about the 'marriage' of Sauron & Shelob - it is ultimately dead - it cannot produce offspring. Though Shelob, we have to remember, is not (as the movie presents her) simply a giant spider, but 'an evil thing in spider form' (don't think Tolkien was promoting bestiality there!). True marriage for Tolkien must produce children - which is why the other pairings - ie Frodo/Sam are not ideals, but stages in the process. They are 'reflections' of different aspects of a hypothetical 'single' being, showing alternative responses to external situatuations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fordim

If I’m getting this right, then Eowyn’s ability to recover from this mistake when the others do not bears attention…

I suppose the 'pairing' in this case is of two different responses to the same thing. The Witch King is a 'Shadow of despair' - Eowyn faces it & slays it, Denethor faces it & succumbs, & is ultimately swallowed up by it. Eowyn, as Denethor, faces the loss of the one person she trully loves, but is not destroyed by despair - yet she is not one in whom the blood of Numenor runs almost true - she is one of the 'middle' people - we could also perhaps pair up Denethor/Frodo & Eowyn/Sam here - the 'upper class', higher beings cannot return from the mythic to the everyday world & are swallowed up in despair, & depart from the world alone, while the 'middle people' are able to live on in the everday world in peace & happiness. It all makes wonder how much Frodo ever really was an ordinary hobbit, & whether he wasn't really an 'outsider', like Galahad, sent into the world to perform his supernatural task & then depart. Though if he symbolises Sam's own spiritual side, then that begs a number of questions.

Tolkien seems to be saying that however overwhelming an eneny or a situation may seem there is always a choice, & he takes us down the two roads which those choices open up - & as you say, Gollum takes both those roads himself. So does Sam for a while, & ultimately chooses Rosie over Frodo, so we have the Frodo/Sam pairing & the Sam/Rosie pairing both co-existing in Sam from the begining - the spiritual path symbolised by his Frodo side, & the homely, hobbit path symbolised by Rosie - he takes the spiritual path as far as he can (or wishes to) & then, in the end, chooses to remain a hobbit. We could take the end of LotR as symbolising the two choices of this 'archetypal' Sam - the spiritual part goes into the West, 'dies', as does the world of magic & myth, & the hobbit side goes home to his family. The 'magic' goes away in the end, & leaves us with the everyday, & Tolkien seems to be saying that, for all the loss of wonder, that's actually for the best.

Fordim Hedgethistle · 08-23-2004, 11:19 AM

It seems that there's a couple of ways of 'dividing' the few pairs we've looked at so far: by gender (men and women); into 'spiritual' or 'moral' and 'physical' or 'simple'; in terms of fulfilment and sacrifice(?).

Is there overlap? It seems as though the characters who are on spiritual journeys (as pointed out by davem) end up with sacrifice and no female, while those on more physical journeys/quests ens up with the fulfilling female.

But even as I write this it seems not to work. Aragorn's journey ends with the fulfilment of marriage and children, but his journey is as morally implicated as is Frodo's and there's no way we can call him a simple person like Sam! What's more, this pattern would seem to relegate women to the rather limited role of domestic "fulfillers" (to coin a new phrase). The purpose of the women is to be paired up with the appropriate male hero at the conclusion of the journey? I don't think there's anyone here who'd be terribly comfortable with this idea (or is there?).

Mithalwen · 08-23-2004, 11:33 AM

Yes but from what I remember of the History of LOTR volumes of HoME, Arwen was such a late development in the story that she does seem to have been created specifically for Aragorn to marry and so to mirror the Beren/Luthien relationship. Although she is so passive compared to Luthien....

and where do that most interesting and really the only three dimensional m/f couple in LOTR fit in (Faramir and Eowyn if you really were in any doubt about who I meant!) ?.... They are not as major characters as Frodo and Aragorn, but they have their physical and emotional journey, their tough choices and find their reward... and their beautifully complex courtship was reduced to a smug smile on celluloid...... aargh

Boromir88 · 08-23-2004, 11:54 AM

This to me is a suprise how no one has mentioned the Denthor-Boromir, Denethor-Faramir, Faramir-Gandalf, relationships.

I mean Denethor has many of the same qualities as Faramir, wise, cunning, Denethor was very good in the defense of Minas Tirith. Faramir thought a lot and both are comprable swordsmen, but being two "positives" they repel. Where Boromir is the total opposite of Denethor, he doesn't care about strategy all his strategy is, go into the enemy and hack them to pieces, "opposites" attract.

Then you have Faramir-Gandalf, where as Denethor put it, Faramir was "gandalf's pupil." Gandalf is sort of like that father figure to Faramir, that he never had, because Denethor favored Boromir. When Faramir does decide to listen to his father, which was the failed attempt to retake Osgiliath (probably the one mistake Denethor made), Faramir comes close to death.

davem · 08-23-2004, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fordim

What's more, this pattern would seem to relegate women to the rather limited role of domestic "fulfillers" (to coin a new phrase). The purpose of the women is to be paired up with the appropriate male hero at the conclusion of the journey? I don't think there's anyone here who'd be terribly comfortable with this idea (or is there?).

I think this could only be applied to Rosie, & even then I'm not too sure it works. The partnerships 'complete' both partners in every case. And if Tolkien's 'ideal' is a settled family life with children, then what goes before - even in the case of Aragorn - is a preliminary to the ultimate goal, which seems to be the establishing of a maturity in the individual which will make possible the true goal. Eowyn's achievement is not slaying the Witch King, it is finding love with Faramir & ceasing to be a shieldmaiden. Both she & Faramir have to grow through their experiences, till they can find their true purpose, symbolised in that moment, standing on Minas Tirith, their hair streaming out & mingling together as they kiss, not caring who saw them (one of Tolkien's most symbolically 'erotic' moments - as pointed out in the essay).

Yes, the women 'complete' the men, but that's as it should be, Tolkien would have said, because the men would be incomplete without them. The heroic journey is, as I said, prelude to the real, valuable thing.

The culmination is not simply being in love, which Sam was with Rosie, & Aragorn with Arwen before they began their heroic escapades, it is a fullfilled sexual relationship within a marriage, which produces children.

The true pairings are man/woman ones, the others are comparisons rather than pairings - yet for Tolkien as a Catholic these pairings result in the two becoming one flesh - which is what Tolkien gets into in Laws & Customs among the Eldar, & is the reason for the Valar's debate about whether it is possible for the eldar to 'divorce'.

Boromir88 · 08-23-2004, 08:49 PM

I think also with the relationship/pairing of Eowyn and Faramir, what makes them even more "opposite" would be their flatness/roundness.

Eowyn is a very flat character, we know what she's going to do, she's going to want to fight, even if she's told to stay back, not to go to war, she's going. Her one priority is like Boromir, fighting plain and simple. Where Faramir is more of a flat character, we don't know what to expect from him. He has this oppurtunity to claim the ring for himself and in doing so would probably save Gondor (or course another dark lord would rise to power), but instead he does something totally opposite of what people expect, he flat out rejects the ring. We know men are easy to corruption, especially when dealing with the one ring, but Faramir isn't like most men, he has the strength to reject the ring, making him "rounder" then the other men we have seen fall to the ring.

I think an obvious pairing would be the fellowship and the nazgul. Elrond comes right out and says there shall be 9 fellowshippers to combat the 9 nazgul. It's not like the nazgul and Fellowship members are totally different either. Just like the nazgul, the fellowship was very vulnurable to corruption, we saw it with Boromir. But Boromir was only the first to fall to the ring, others would have followed if Frodo hadn't of left the fellowship.

Lastly, the pairing between Gandalf and Denethor. Both bring different qualities to the table when it comes to defending Minas Tirith, and without one of them Minas Tirith might not have succeeded. Denethor sets up the defenses of the city. When Gandalf arrives, walls are built around Minas Tirith, he's got the beacons lit, Hirgon sent out, the armies of the outerlands coming into the city, so he did a very good job in setting up the defenses of the city. Denethor learned a lot from the palantir, in where he was willing to fight Sauron and knew how to defend the city (too bad the palantir also made him crazy). Where Gandalf is more of the pep talker/motivational speaker. It said when Gandalf was around the spirits of the soldiers raised. Now When Denethor shows his sword it shows he still is willing to combat Sauron, but I don't know of many circumstances of him riding to the gates and giving peptalks or morale boosts like Gandalf did (because he didn't). So I think without one of them Minas Tirith would have been doomed, Denethor had the defense read, Gandalf brought his motivational peptalks to the stage.

Cibbwin · 08-24-2004, 04:04 AM

What about Turin and Nienor? They are very much so paired. Both end their life tragically.

Aule and Yavanna, I think, are always in competition with each other, and that's what keep them together. Every day is something new and exciting for them.

And of course Manwe and Varda. He cannot see as far if she is not with him, and she cannot hear as well if he is not with her.

08-23-2004, 11:19 AM	#2
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	It seems that there's a couple of ways of 'dividing' the few pairs we've looked at so far: by gender (men and women); into 'spiritual' or 'moral' and 'physical' or 'simple'; in terms of fulfilment and sacrifice(?). Is there overlap? It seems as though the characters who are on spiritual journeys (as pointed out by davem) end up with sacrifice and no female, while those on more physical journeys/quests ens up with the fulfilling female. But even as I write this it seems not to work. Aragorn's journey ends with the fulfilment of marriage and children, but his journey is as morally implicated as is Frodo's and there's no way we can call him a simple person like Sam! What's more, this pattern would seem to relegate women to the rather limited role of domestic "fulfillers" (to coin a new phrase). The purpose of the women is to be paired up with the appropriate male hero at the conclusion of the journey? I don't think there's anyone here who'd be terribly comfortable with this idea (or is there?). __________________ Scribbling scrabbling.

08-23-2004, 11:33 AM	#3
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,460	Yes but from what I remember of the History of LOTR volumes of HoME, Arwen was such a late development in the story that she does seem to have been created specifically for Aragorn to marry and so to mirror the Beren/Luthien relationship. Although she is so passive compared to Luthien.... and where do that most interesting and really the only three dimensional m/f couple in LOTR fit in (Faramir and Eowyn if you really were in any doubt about who I meant!) ?.... They are not as major characters as Frodo and Aragorn, but they have their physical and emotional journey, their tough choices and find their reward... and their beautifully complex courtship was reduced to a smug smile on celluloid...... aargh __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

08-23-2004, 11:54 AM	#4
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	One we haven't mentioned yet. This to me is a suprise how no one has mentioned the Denthor-Boromir, Denethor-Faramir, Faramir-Gandalf, relationships. I mean Denethor has many of the same qualities as Faramir, wise, cunning, Denethor was very good in the defense of Minas Tirith. Faramir thought a lot and both are comprable swordsmen, but being two "positives" they repel. Where Boromir is the total opposite of Denethor, he doesn't care about strategy all his strategy is, go into the enemy and hack them to pieces, "opposites" attract. Then you have Faramir-Gandalf, where as Denethor put it, Faramir was "gandalf's pupil." Gandalf is sort of like that father figure to Faramir, that he never had, because Denethor favored Boromir. When Faramir does decide to listen to his father, which was the failed attempt to retake Osgiliath (probably the one mistake Denethor made), Faramir comes close to death.

08-23-2004, 08:49 PM	#6
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	Notes on Round and Flat... I think also with the relationship/pairing of Eowyn and Faramir, what makes them even more "opposite" would be their flatness/roundness. Eowyn is a very flat character, we know what she's going to do, she's going to want to fight, even if she's told to stay back, not to go to war, she's going. Her one priority is like Boromir, fighting plain and simple. Where Faramir is more of a flat character, we don't know what to expect from him. He has this oppurtunity to claim the ring for himself and in doing so would probably save Gondor (or course another dark lord would rise to power), but instead he does something totally opposite of what people expect, he flat out rejects the ring. We know men are easy to corruption, especially when dealing with the one ring, but Faramir isn't like most men, he has the strength to reject the ring, making him "rounder" then the other men we have seen fall to the ring. I think an obvious pairing would be the fellowship and the nazgul. Elrond comes right out and says there shall be 9 fellowshippers to combat the 9 nazgul. It's not like the nazgul and Fellowship members are totally different either. Just like the nazgul, the fellowship was very vulnurable to corruption, we saw it with Boromir. But Boromir was only the first to fall to the ring, others would have followed if Frodo hadn't of left the fellowship. Lastly, the pairing between Gandalf and Denethor. Both bring different qualities to the table when it comes to defending Minas Tirith, and without one of them Minas Tirith might not have succeeded. Denethor sets up the defenses of the city. When Gandalf arrives, walls are built around Minas Tirith, he's got the beacons lit, Hirgon sent out, the armies of the outerlands coming into the city, so he did a very good job in setting up the defenses of the city. Denethor learned a lot from the palantir, in where he was willing to fight Sauron and knew how to defend the city (too bad the palantir also made him crazy). Where Gandalf is more of the pep talker/motivational speaker. It said when Gandalf was around the spirits of the soldiers raised. Now When Denethor shows his sword it shows he still is willing to combat Sauron, but I don't know of many circumstances of him riding to the gates and giving peptalks or morale boosts like Gandalf did (because he didn't). So I think without one of them Minas Tirith would have been doomed, Denethor had the defense read, Gandalf brought his motivational peptalks to the stage.

08-24-2004, 04:04 AM	#7
Cibbwin Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: California Posts: 145	What about Turin and Nienor? They are very much so paired. Both end their life tragically. Aule and Yavanna, I think, are always in competition with each other, and that's what keep them together. Every day is something new and exciting for them. And of course Manwe and Varda. He cannot see as far if she is not with him, and she cannot hear as well if he is not with her. __________________ The Warrior Hobbit Nîn o Chithaeglir, lasto beth daer; Rimmo nîn Bruinen, dan in Ulaer!