Marriage!

[Mithalwen]

well I have just read a posting on the the thread for the barrowdowners of riper years which seems to agree with me ..... and what happened to all the kids they didn't take to Gondor....... And it seems to me that Rosie and the children play second fiddle to Frodo always ...when Frodo leaves, Sam wants to go to .. - I think it was interesting that Tolkien originally made Sam's last line "Well I've come back" ...

[Encaitare]

And it seems to me that Rosie and the children play second fiddle to Frodo always

That's very true. I wonder what the kids thought when Sam eventually left.

[Mithalwen]

Yes, that is what I thought ..... I mean I know Mery and Pippin went south... but somehow that wasn't so final ... but it was almost as if he was witing for her to die so he could rejoin Mr Frodo ... they must have felt rejected.....

[Encaitare]

Hopefully Sam wasn't so obvious about it! All "Hey, Rosie, will ya hurry up and die so I can go be with Frodo? Please?" Let's hope he let the children down easily too. Oh well, the youngest was already 40 by the time he left, so it wasn't as though he simply left them to fend for themselves.

[Mithalwen]

Yes but it is still choosing Frodo over his children and grandchildren....

[Encaitare]

Indeed it is, and I wonder if Sam ever regretted his choice to leave the Shire. Although he was doubtless very happy in the Undying Lands, he left so much behind. I wonder if he ever missed it.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Wow, I'd never though of Sam in quite that light before! Thanks for providing something new to bend my head around!

I like to live in my own happy little world where Sam and Rosie are a very happy couple. I think that Sam would have made a wonderful father and husband... I saw his devotion to Frodo as an indication of his behavior towards anyone or anything that he loved... He was very devoted to saving the Shire, generous with his gift from Galadriel in order to make the Shire a better place and help to bring back some of what was lost in the time under Saruman. I like to think that he would have given Rosie the same love and devotion he gave to everything else he cared about... And Rosie had 13 children with him. I can't imagine her having so many children if she didn't love him back, or felt slighted in any way. I think that if she had felt that she took second priority to Frodo, she would have stopped saying "yes" or suggesting to have more herself. I truly can't see Sam as anything but a devoted, loving, caring husband. He's such a sweet, kindhearted guy.

In the book "Sauron Defeated", part of the History of Lord of the Rings, there is a very nice epilogue that never went into the book (but I like the book just fine the way it is!) that shows Sam with his children recieveing a letter from Aragorn... it's been a while since I read it, but I never saw anything indicating that he gave less love to his children than they deserved, at least that I can remember.

..."Well, I'm back"... What that is to me is an indication that Sam has really come home to stay. An acceptance of the fact that Frodo was gone, and that he would have to be "one and whole" in his life with Rosie...and a willingness to do so, a peace and happiness in his family (Rosie had set Elanor in his lap just before he said that). He didn't say, "Well, I'm back" at any point while Frodo was still around...and it was only after he left that Sam really came home to his family...and they had many happy years together. I think that maybe "Well, I've come back" as mentioned earlier by Mithalwen would have better conveyed that, but "well, I'm back" has a nice ring to it... and for me that sentiment, the feeling behind that of really coming home as he had perhaps not done in the years Frodo was still with him, remains.

Originally Posted by Encaitare

Indeed it is, and I wonder if Sam ever regretted his choice to leave the Shire. Although he was doubtless very happy in the Undying Lands, he left so much behind. I wonder if he ever missed it.

One thing that does not seem to have been mentioned is that Sam was a ringbearer, if only for a short time. He probably felt some form of loss when the Ring was destroyed, and for his part he was due some reward in the undying lands when the thing that bound him to middle earth most (Rosie) passed away.

Sam was given the opportunity to sail with Legolas and Gimli (I believe it was with them), Rosie was dead, his children were grown up, he was an old Hobbit, nearing the end of his life, had suffered for his part in the fate of middle earth. I don't see any real betrayal or love of Frodo superior to his love to Rosie in Sam's actions.

I am not a scholar of World War I, but from the few books I have read and plays seen, the common theme of love / respect / friendship / duty between an Officer and his men, following him to certain doom blah blah blah fits the Frodo Sam story of the Lord of the Rings, and the final part must be either the death of the both, or reuniting.

I have jsut had an odd thought, prompted by the above; we know that the hobbits and Gimli are mortal, and thier mortality continues even in the Undying lands, and that Frodo was in serious pain when he left Middle Earth, it is possible that Frodo had passed through his dream of music and his life had passed when Sam arrived. Does not really fit with the conceit of the relationship between them, but is still a possibility.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Yes but it is still choosing Frodo over his children and grandchildren....

There is an interesting thread here discussing the conscious decisions made by Sam and (more particularly) Arwen to leave their children:

Why did Arwen do that??

[Mithalwen]

Funnily enough, I have just read that. However it might lead to yet more unfortunate speculation about the Frodo/Sam relationship. It is one thing to leave your children to seek reunion with your husband and quite another to leave them for your friend.