Only one lineage? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Morwen Tindomerel · 03-30-2003, 07:55 PM

I don't know, sometimes I think we are talking at cross purposes.

Point one: All with mortal blood in greater or lesser part share the Gift of Men, though they may also live very long lives.

Point two: An exception was made for Earendil and Elwing, they were allowed to choose which kind they would be counted among - in other words to choose between the Gift of Men and the life bound to Arda of the Elves.

Point three: the same favor was granted to their sons. Elros chose to abid with Men, Elrond to share the fate of the Elves.

I believe we agree on all these points, no?

Now, since all with mortal blood, (of whatever proportion) are Mortal then Elrond's children should also have been Mortal dispite their Elven mother. Right?

*However* they, like their father were allowed to choose - and the choice seems to have been had to be made when Elrond departed from Middle Earth - in Arwen's case at least, and frankly I see no reason to assume it was not true of the twins as well.

Now, why was the right of choice extended to them as well as their father - and *how* were they made aware of it? Elrond married and had his children in the Third Age, after the change of the world and before the arrival of the Istari. So who told them their doom?

Elrond and Elros made their choices at the end of the First Age, when the Host of Valinor led by Eonwe herald of Manwe were still in Middle Earth. Vardamir's date of birth also suggests that his father was either married or at least in love, presumably with a Mortal Woman, when he made his decision.

Thus the question of children and their destiny would naturally have arisen at that time. I repeat, Arwen and the twins are *every bit as Mortal by birth as the children of Elros for all their Elven mother. I see absolutely no logical reason why they should have been favored over Elros' brood.

Logically Eonwe must have extended the choice to their offspring at the time Elros and Elrond made their own decisions. Telling Elrond his children could delay their final decision until his departure to Aman, and perhaps giving Elros' the option to sail to Aman if they chose too. Possibly none did, certainly none of his sons did. They remained in Numenor as Mortal Men.

Nor do I see the quote from Tolkien's letter as negating this possibility. He says Elros' descendants were long lived kings, and so they were - or rather so *some* of them were. Just as not all his descendants were kings so not all may have been Mortal. Clearly Tolkien was talking about the direct line of the kings here, the line that regretted Elros' decision and tried to reverse it. It doesn't necessarily say anything about the junior lines descended from Elros' younger sons, (who were not kings) or his daughter (who may not have been mortal).

03-30-2003, 07:55 PM	#11
Morwen Tindomerel Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Minas Anor or Annuminas the Golden Posts: 187	I don't know, sometimes I think we are talking at cross purposes. Point one: All with mortal blood in greater or lesser part share the Gift of Men, though they may also live very long lives. Point two: An exception was made for Earendil and Elwing, they were allowed to choose which kind they would be counted among - in other words to choose between the Gift of Men and the life bound to Arda of the Elves. Point three: the same favor was granted to their sons. Elros chose to abid with Men, Elrond to share the fate of the Elves. I believe we agree on all these points, no? Now, since all with mortal blood, (of whatever proportion) are Mortal then Elrond's children should also have been Mortal dispite their Elven mother. Right? However they, like their father were allowed to choose - and the choice seems to have been had to be made when Elrond departed from Middle Earth - in Arwen's case at least, and frankly I see no reason to assume it was not true of the twins as well. Now, why was the right of choice extended to them as well as their father - and how were they made aware of it? Elrond married and had his children in the Third Age, after the change of the world and before the arrival of the Istari. So who told them their doom? Elrond and Elros made their choices at the end of the First Age, when the Host of Valinor led by Eonwe herald of Manwe were still in Middle Earth. Vardamir's date of birth also suggests that his father was either married or at least in love, presumably with a Mortal Woman, when he made his decision. Thus the question of children and their destiny would naturally have arisen at that time. I repeat, Arwen and the twins are every bit as Mortal by birth as the children of Elros for all their Elven mother. I see absolutely no logical reason why they should have been favored over Elros' brood. Logically Eonwe must have extended the choice to their offspring at the time Elros and Elrond made their own decisions. Telling Elrond his children could delay their final decision until his departure to Aman, and perhaps giving Elros' the option to sail to Aman if they chose too. Possibly none did, certainly none of his sons did. They remained in Numenor as Mortal Men. Nor do I see the quote from Tolkien's letter as negating this possibility. He says Elros' descendants were long lived kings, and so they were - or rather so some* of them were. Just as not all his descendants were kings so not all may have been Mortal. Clearly Tolkien was talking about the direct line of the kings here, the line that regretted Elros' decision and tried to reverse it. It doesn't necessarily say anything about the junior lines descended from Elros' younger sons, (who were not kings) or his daughter (who may not have been mortal).