Tolkien and Parody - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 09-06-2004, 01:06 AM

On 'Grammeree'

There is a folksong, The Wife of Usher's Well, about a mother who's three sons had 'died' whille at the 'Foreign School', & who attempts by an invocation of Christ to bring them back to life:

Quote:

There was a lady at Usher's Well,
And children had she three,
She sent them off to the foreign school,
To learn their grammeree.

O they hadn't been gone but a very short time,
About three weeks & a day,
When death, sweet death came hastening along,
And stole those babes away'

As RJ Stewart points out in The UnderWorld Initiation, in folksong (specifically the type known as 'Magical Ballads'), 'visits to 'Spain', 'Turkey', the 'unco'land, a 'foreign land', often imply the journey to the OtherWorld or UnderWorld'.

In other words, she sends her children into Faerie to learn the 'mysteries', but they die (or get trapped) while there, & she attempts to bring them back into this world, but as the song tells, she fails in the attempt.

So 'grammerians' were believed to know 'secrets' - they were 'wizards' who had arcane knowledge unavailable to others - possibly the reason for the suspicion of 'book learning' among the ignorant.

Estelyn Telcontar · 09-20-2004, 06:55 AM

I've been thinking, not for the first time, about the similarity between parody and the art form which I actively (sub)create, patchwork. The thought came up in this discussion that parody is "easy" to do, since one works with existing material. Well, the same could be said of patchwork, and has, in the past. How silly to cut up a perfectly good fabric and sew the pieces together again! But the art is in the choice of the fabrics and colors, and in the pattern and arrangement of the pieces. Nowadays, antique quilts are prized collector's items, and new quilts and patchworks are recognized as art.

Cannot the same be true of parody? It is in the choice and combination of elements, the quality of writing that goes into a work of parody, that the skill (or lack of the same!

) of its author is shown. A good parody can bring references to highly varying previous works (and other elements) together and make us see them in a new light.

As a matter of fact, I'm discovering that in a completely different type of parody - a classical music parody! (P. D. Q. Bach, for those who are familiar with 'him' ) After hearing the first movement of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony as a sportscast, (two elements that one would never associate with each other!) I'll never hear that piece the same way again!

But that is not quite related to our discussion...

If a well-written parody can make me see Tolkien's works in a new and fresh light, isn't it worthwhile?!

narfforc · 01-18-2006, 05:08 PM

I'm sorry to drag this one out of retirement, but ESTY sent this thread to me some months ago, having read some of my work. Subsequently we met at The 50th Anniversary in Birmingham, and I believe that she read most of The Followship of the Ring and The Two Townies (In fact she hogged the MS, so DAVEM couldn't get his hands on it). I have just sent a part of The Lord of the Grins to an agent, in the hope he can find a publisher. Having read this thread (to the best of my ability), I find a lot to be positive about. My overiding fear is that Tolkien Scholars will see this as just another attempt to cash in on the name, I can honestly tell you that is not true. I have read Bored of the Rings, and although I find it funny, For I am old enough to understand most of the references to our world of the Sixties, many of todays readers have no idea of them. When I started the book I only really wanted to update the humour, however it has grown out of proportion.
Having read The Soddit, The Sellamillion and The Sillymarillion, I can only say in my mind, mine is as good as any of them. I think where mine differs, is that I love the works of Tolkien. I am a member of The Tolkien Society, and have been reading his works since the late sixties. I have a huge collection of his works (twenty different copies of The Lord of the Rings alone). I consider what I am doing no worse than Peter Jackson, in that LotR is a room full of doors, and we have both entered it through different ways. Parody is an ability to look at something in a different way. The english language can often be turned on its head. A great hero of mine was Ronnie Barker, he to me was a true wordsmith, anyone who has seen The Four Candles/Fork Handles sketch will know what I mean, he told this once:-

Man to young boy "Go over the road and see how Old Mrs Smith is"
Boy comes back and replies "She says her age has got nothing to do with you"

Try to imagine at the point where Celeborn says in Lothlorien, "One would say at the last Gandalf fell into folly", then Pippin saying, "No he fell into a big black hole"

The main thing is, I am one of you, and it is for us and only us that this book is aimed at. It will have no meaning to those who have only seen the films, or who have read the books only once, if you haven't read The Silmarillion or The Appendices, you will be in trouble also. The hardest parts of writing this book have been where LotR get really serious, and changing the names so they all match the new story and are not just silly. So I will leave you with the true version of The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen.

I know by rights this should be in The Middle-earth Mirth dept, but it is an attempt to show how parody works.

Benny son of Barry was a working class man who fell in love with a royal. She was the daughter of King Thingy and Mullien The May I, called Lillian Tinnitus which is Frighteningwail in The Spindrawlin language of the Elves. Thingy was King of the Elves and was known as Elude Singular, Greatmangle Lord of The Thousand Cafes of Manygrowth of Doorhehath. The King sent Benny on a quest, which included him getting past the whole host of Mortcough and into the Halls of Hangbad beneath the Towers of Thatgotridofhim. Benny Chameleon returned out of the darkness (The Lay of which was written by Roy Gorge The Rotund), and wed Lillian. Their child was Dear Helovachil, whose daughter Yelling married Herenditall the son of Chewer son of Hewer and Idiot Cerebellum daughter of King Turgid. The sons of Yelling and Herenditall were Elbow the Halfman and Elroy Tru-miniature the first king of Neomanor. So it was that the line was reunited when Paragon son of Paramount, Alesser Heir of Everdulls son Evenduller King of Gondour and Another(small insignificant place in the north), wed Olwen Undomesticated daughter of Elbow the Halfman.

P.S I was only joking ESTY, honest.

narfforc · 05-01-2012, 05:07 AM

So here we are many years later, I have two books available from Amazon Kindle, The Followship of the Ring and The Two Townies. With much help from Davem, and words of encouragement from Esty and Bethberry, I am now working on The Retinue of the King part one and The Retinue of the King part two in 3D. If any of you do buy them, I hope you like them.

Morthoron · 05-01-2012, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by narfforc

So here we are many years later, I have two books available from Amazon Kindle, The Followship of the Ring and The Two Townies. With much help from Davem, and words of encouragement from Esty and Bethberry, I am now working on The Retinue of the King part one and The Retinue of the King part two in 3D. If any of you do buy them, I hope you like them.

Unlike Narf (congratulations by the way, Narf), I never published my parodies, particularly because I have infringed on nearly every copyright convention imaginable. But the satires are, nevertheless, award-winning and recognized in fan-fic circles for their general silliness, literary pretensions and good grammar:

Monty Python's The Hobbit

Monty Python's Fellowship of the Ring

Monty Python's The Two Towers

The parody only made it halfway through the Two Towers due to the intervention by United Nations Peacekeeping Forces and sanctions against several of the major characters.

Inziladun · 05-01-2012, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by narfforc

So here we are many years later, I have two books available from Amazon Kindle, The Followship of the Ring and The Two Townies. With much help from Davem, and words of encouragement from Esty and Bethberry, I am now working on The Retinue of the King part one and The Retinue of the King part two in 3D. If any of you do buy them, I hope you like them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Unlike Narf (congratulations by the way, Narf), I never published my parodies, particularly because I have infringed on nearly every copyright convention imaginable. But the satires are, nevertheless, award-winning and recognized in fan-fic circles for their general silliness, literary pretensions and good grammar:

Monty Python's The Hobbit

Monty Python's Fellowship of the Ring

Monty Python's The Two Towers

The parody only made it halfway through the Two Towers due to the intervention by United Nations Peacekeeping Forces and sanctions against several of the major characters.

Peter Jackson beat both of you to the punch.

Anyway, nice work to both of you. I can't imagine having the attention span to write an entire book.

09-20-2004, 06:55 AM	#2
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	I've been thinking, not for the first time, about the similarity between parody and the art form which I actively (sub)create, patchwork. The thought came up in this discussion that parody is "easy" to do, since one works with existing material. Well, the same could be said of patchwork, and has, in the past. How silly to cut up a perfectly good fabric and sew the pieces together again! But the art is in the choice of the fabrics and colors, and in the pattern and arrangement of the pieces. Nowadays, antique quilts are prized collector's items, and new quilts and patchworks are recognized as art. Cannot the same be true of parody? It is in the choice and combination of elements, the quality of writing that goes into a work of parody, that the skill (or lack of the same! ) of its author is shown. A good parody can bring references to highly varying previous works (and other elements) together and make us see them in a new light. As a matter of fact, I'm discovering that in a completely different type of parody - a classical music parody! (P. D. Q. Bach, for those who are familiar with 'him' ) After hearing the first movement of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony as a sportscast, (two elements that one would never associate with each other!) I'll never hear that piece the same way again! But that is not quite related to our discussion... If a well-written parody can make me see Tolkien's works in a new and fresh light, isn't it worthwhile?! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

01-18-2006, 05:08 PM	#3
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	What are you laughing at? I'm sorry to drag this one out of retirement, but ESTY sent this thread to me some months ago, having read some of my work. Subsequently we met at The 50th Anniversary in Birmingham, and I believe that she read most of The Followship of the Ring and The Two Townies (In fact she hogged the MS, so DAVEM couldn't get his hands on it). I have just sent a part of The Lord of the Grins to an agent, in the hope he can find a publisher. Having read this thread (to the best of my ability), I find a lot to be positive about. My overiding fear is that Tolkien Scholars will see this as just another attempt to cash in on the name, I can honestly tell you that is not true. I have read Bored of the Rings, and although I find it funny, For I am old enough to understand most of the references to our world of the Sixties, many of todays readers have no idea of them. When I started the book I only really wanted to update the humour, however it has grown out of proportion. Having read The Soddit, The Sellamillion and The Sillymarillion, I can only say in my mind, mine is as good as any of them. I think where mine differs, is that I love the works of Tolkien. I am a member of The Tolkien Society, and have been reading his works since the late sixties. I have a huge collection of his works (twenty different copies of The Lord of the Rings alone). I consider what I am doing no worse than Peter Jackson, in that LotR is a room full of doors, and we have both entered it through different ways. Parody is an ability to look at something in a different way. The english language can often be turned on its head. A great hero of mine was Ronnie Barker, he to me was a true wordsmith, anyone who has seen The Four Candles/Fork Handles sketch will know what I mean, he told this once:- Man to young boy "Go over the road and see how Old Mrs Smith is" Boy comes back and replies "She says her age has got nothing to do with you" Try to imagine at the point where Celeborn says in Lothlorien, "One would say at the last Gandalf fell into folly", then Pippin saying, "No he fell into a big black hole" The main thing is, I am one of you, and it is for us and only us that this book is aimed at. It will have no meaning to those who have only seen the films, or who have read the books only once, if you haven't read The Silmarillion or The Appendices, you will be in trouble also. The hardest parts of writing this book have been where LotR get really serious, and changing the names so they all match the new story and are not just silly. So I will leave you with the true version of The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. I know by rights this should be in The Middle-earth Mirth dept, but it is an attempt to show how parody works. Benny son of Barry was a working class man who fell in love with a royal. She was the daughter of King Thingy and Mullien The May I, called Lillian Tinnitus which is Frighteningwail in The Spindrawlin language of the Elves. Thingy was King of the Elves and was known as Elude Singular, Greatmangle Lord of The Thousand Cafes of Manygrowth of Doorhehath. The King sent Benny on a quest, which included him getting past the whole host of Mortcough and into the Halls of Hangbad beneath the Towers of Thatgotridofhim. Benny Chameleon returned out of the darkness (The Lay of which was written by Roy Gorge The Rotund), and wed Lillian. Their child was Dear Helovachil, whose daughter Yelling married Herenditall the son of Chewer son of Hewer and Idiot Cerebellum daughter of King Turgid. The sons of Yelling and Herenditall were Elbow the Halfman and Elroy Tru-miniature the first king of Neomanor. So it was that the line was reunited when Paragon son of Paramount, Alesser Heir of Everdulls son Evenduller King of Gondour and Another(small insignificant place in the north), wed Olwen Undomesticated daughter of Elbow the Halfman. P.S I was only joking ESTY, honest.

05-01-2012, 05:07 AM	#4
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	The Lord of the Grins So here we are many years later, I have two books available from Amazon Kindle, The Followship of the Ring and The Two Townies. With much help from Davem, and words of encouragement from Esty and Bethberry, I am now working on The Retinue of the King part one and The Retinue of the King part two in 3D. If any of you do buy them, I hope you like them. __________________ [B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER.