Why their were no women in the fellowship

[Encaitare]

Took the words right out of my mouth, Estel. We must indeed keep in mind that book-Arwen was not the fighting type. Plus, Aragorn never would have allowed her to come, anyway, knowing the risks they faced.

And come to think of it, Sauron missed a move, not giving one of the rings to Queen Beruthiel. But then, maybe Sauron wasn't a cat person.

Aren't cats supposed to have come from Mordor? I can't back that, but I know I saw it on a thread not long ago. But Queen Beruthiel with a ring would have been quite formidable.

[ninlaith]

Arwen was part of the council. In fact she was sitting right next to her father and brothers. Perhaps Sir Tolkien thought that a woman in the fellowship would possibly complicate things. As a woman I know we can mess with a man's sometimes sensible head (one of our many gifts....Mwa ha ha haaa).

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I just rechecked "The Council of Elrond" to be sure - no, Arwen was not at the council, but only at the festivities on the preceding evening. Just wanting to make sure Tolkien and Mirth don't get mixed up more than necessary...

[Mithalwen]

I don't even think that Elladan and Elrohir .... who would have been much better candidates were there. But for plot reasons, I think having a powerful elf-lord would have unbalanced the fellowship...

[ninlaith]

sorry Telcontar my mistake. I remembered reading about her sitting beside her father but that was in the Hall of Fire not in the council.....I am ashamed.

[Orophin]

I always thought it was all guys because they needed a small amount of people that could take care of themselves against anything they were going to meet between Rivendell and Mordor. That is why they picked wise and powerful men people like Gandalf, Arargorn etc. There doesn't seem to be many girls to pick. Besides Arwen which has already been said wasn't the warrior type. Maybe there just wern't any female canidates available.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

And now for something completely different.......

Well, since this forum says:
"Middle-earth Mirth Fun and friendly TOLKIEN and MIDDLE-EARTH topics that are more comical than informational."

How about, in the spirit of a past PBS tv special featuring an all-girl band
performing "Pretty Woman", an all-girl Fellowship of:

1---Lobelia (the ringbearer)
2---Rosie Cotton
3---Esmeralda Brandybuck
4---Farmer Maggot's wife
5---Goldberry (the wizardish one of this Fellowship)
(An, unconfirmed, rumor has it the list below is from a rejected version of LOTR, yet to be published by Christopher Tolkien).

As Faramir and Boromir are telling the Steward about their dreams and
arguing over who goes Ioreth buts in with some arcane observations about
dream interpretation, etc. Denethor says "Good grief! Not again." A lightbulb
goes on over the heads of Faramir and Denethor, and eventually (dimly) over
Boromir. So:
6---Ioreth. She naturally stops off in Edoras and can't keep her quest secret,
7---Eowyn says "Cool!" and joins.
Meanwhile, utilizing PJ's esp concept of elf communication:
8---Galadriel finds out about the meeting, goes up and joins (like sonny is going
to turn her down?)
9---XenaArwen finds out what's happening, is worried about her Kermie (I
mean Aragorn) being picked on by Sauron, so, being a N.E.P. (Noldorin Elf Princess) she gets daddy to let her go along.

I guess I shouldn't go into detail about Ioreth being captured by Saruman's
orcs and Sauman telling Wormtongue "Put her on the rack! And if that
doesn't work she'll have to stay in the Comfy Chair until teatime."
"Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!" [maniacal laughter].

Okay, I suppose it's a good thing JRRT did revise his work a lot.
Although, say what you will, the above at least gets Ioreth out of the
Coronation scene.

[yavanna II]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I But for plot reasons, I think having a powerful elf-lord would have unbalanced the fellowship...

I don't get it... a really powerful e.l. would've made the fellowship better in my view....

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Gandalf to Elrond in Rivendell

I think, Elrond, that in this matter it would be well to trust rather to their friendship than to great wisdom.Even if you chose for us an elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road to the Fire by the power that is in him.'

P.S.

Kransha, take this hair-drier as a token of my admiration of your post, and great love of clean and dry floors...

P.P.S.

You're in for some, once I spread some around

[Bêthberry]

*Esty applauds Kransha's brilliant post enthusiastically*

SpM posted:
Dontcha just hate it when you post something mildly humerous and someone follows it up with a comedy tour-de-force?!

My dear fellow Mods. While I applaud your verdant laudatory words here, may I take this opportunity to point out that I took action upon this most excellent theory in the vein of fantasy and construed a commemorative thread in the hopes of rewarding not only this but other fine works in our domain. Best Post of the Week . Please be so kind as to provide your support for my ceaseless efforts to uphold the standard by which we all wish to be entertained. *bows humbly*

Mr. Kransha,

My, my, I certainly did not expect such an ovation. This sudden well of praise is, I assure you, totally undeserved on my part.

I do hope I have not unduly drawn from the wellsprings of your modesty, with the possible flood which the above thread could generate.

. If y'all liked this little exercise, you'll probably love my theory about Tom Bombadil and the Merry Dol of Doom.

Get thee to a Willowery!

And as for making this post topical, well, I want to raise another issue. It is not why were there no women in the Fellowship, but why was there no woman at the Council of Elrond? Was Arwen relegated to a back room sweatshop where she toiled at her banner-works? Or was she in fact present? Did her presence distract Aragorn and make it too difficult to write a heroic role for him? Is it possible that heroic narrative must deny Truth and Reality by omitting various historical facts? Is Arwen's absence a most notorious example of the silenced woman?

This nefarious slight suggests rank conspiracy at the deepest levels. Why do you think Bilbo refused to acknowledge she was present? Or is the Translator at fault for being unable to decipher the scribbled script? Or is the omission a failure of authorship? Do we have here evidence that, after Arwen's pure and noble rejection of the Ring, Galadriel's near-temptation would have been shown in, er, poor light? Do we have an Author playing favourites with his female characters?

The possibilities boggle the mind, even those not dependent upon pills.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Get thee to a Willowery!

And as for making this post topical, well, I want to raise another issue. It is not why were there no women in the Fellowship, but why was there no woman at the Council of Elrond? Was Arwen relegated to a back room sweatshop where she toiled at her banner-works? Or was she in fact present? Did her presence distract Aragorn and make it too difficult to write a heroic role for him? Is it possible that heroic narrative must deny Truth and Reality by omitting various historical facts? Is Arwen's absence a most notorious example of the silenced woman?

This nefarious slight suggests rank conspiracy at the deepest levels. Why do you think Bilbo refused to acknowledge she was present? Or is the Translator at fault for being unable to decipher the scribbled script? Or is the omission a failure of authorship? Do we have here evidence that, after Arwen's pure and noble rejection of the Ring, Galadriel's near-temptation would have been shown in, er, poor light? Do we have an Author playing favourites with his female characters?

The possibilities boggle the mind, even those not dependent upon pills.

The idea of author playing favourites with his female characters has given me an evil idea - I know I am inclined to Arwen-bash because of the Xena-Arwen PJ fiasco, and I know the dull, prosaic expalnation is that Arwen was a late arrival to the plot who could have been better integrated (not that I think she would ever have been written into the quest).

However, prompted by memories of two of my dearest novelists who played this game - Jane Austen who "punished" Louisa Musgrove for falling for the hero when she wasn't the heroine by making her slightly soft in the head after her fall at Lyme, and Anthony Trollope who defied genetic probability by making the child of the magnificent Dr and Mrs Grantly into the original dumb blonde [Griselda, Lady Hartletop and Dumbello] - this thought occurred: What evidence is there that Arwen was intelligent?

Much as I hate to admit it - not all women have been held back from the higher echelons of power by male hegemony, Some are held back by their lack of ability. It is possible that Arwen did not take after her father and grandmother, that she was no Condeleeza Rice (nb this example is not made with political intent, but because she is probably the most powerful woman in the world who hasn't been born or married into a high position).

Imagine then Arwen at the Council, unhampered by a tendancy to over intellectualize, "Daddy, can't you just give me the ring - but get the smiths to set a nice big diamond in it like Granny's - you never stop grumpling about my haberdasher's bill and now you want to throw away jewellery!...." It might be the Middle Earth equivalent of giving Paris Hilton a seat at the UN....

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I know I am inclined to Arwen-bash because of the Xena-Arwen PJ fiasco

What makes you say film-Arwen is a Xenarwen figure? Heck, all she ended up doing was riding with Frodo to the Ford and defying the Nazgul when she knew Daddy would bring a flood down on them if they came any further. Hardly qualifies her for warrior-princess status.

And, more importantly, what's to say that book-Arwen wouldn't have been a Xenarwen, or at least a tad more tough in a pinch than she is made out to be, had she been given the opportunity. Luthien is the precedent here, after all.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by yavanna II

I don't get it... a really powerful e.l. would've made the fellowship better in my view....

What I mean is that after Gandalf "falls in to shadow" the plot requires Aragorn to take the lead .. I don't think that that would have happened if such a powerful elf-lord as Glorfindel had been there. I think the Flight to the Ford shows that Glorfindel would have taken the lead. Also I think different decisions might have been made and maybe an elf lord revealed in his wrath would have changed the events during and following the orc attack. He might not be able to storm the road to the fire but he could probably make an impression on a gang of Uruks....

[Encaitare]

Anyway, I'm still waiting for a mud wrestling contest in the extended dvd
between Eowyn and XenaArwen (of the FOTR movie) over Aragorn.
Loser gets Faramir as a nice consolation prize.

Psh... I'd lose on purpose. I don't need a king.