The Role of Women in The Lord of the Rings

[Child of the 7th Age]

Let me add one more link to the list. Here is my own personal favorite:

Tolkien the Matricide by Birdland

[Lalaith]

Then there is of course the mysterious figure of Elbereth. I always found it interesting, even when I first read LotR as a child, that the only 'deity' figure in the book was female.

And (particularly for the benefit of those that object to Arwen's presence at the Ford in the film ) book Frodo calls on two females at this supremely dangerous moment - Luthien and Elbereth.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Let's not forget the stereotypical aspect of beauty that shows up in Tolkien's female characters! Goldberry, Arwen, Galadriel, Éowyn - their looks are important to the way they are seen by the men surrounding them, while male appearance is less frequently mentioned.

I'm trying to recall women in LotR who are not described as beautiful - Ioreth, who is only mentioned in her function as healer and known to us through her (incessant!) speech; Mrs. Maggot; as a matter of fact, I don't think we're told if Rosie is good-looking! But those all share the characteristic of being "real" women, the ones that are married and have 13 children, or are involved in the daily tasks of the world close to home for the hobbits and humans.

On the other hand, female ugliness is named only in the case of Shelob, as far as I recall.

Sometimes beauty is in the eye of the beholder - Treebeard calls Fimbrethil lovely, though I would imagine we might not see that eye to eye with him.

Perhaps there are more examples, but none occur to me right now...


[*Estelyn ponders the similarity of those priorities to those of today's society and hums "Summertime" - "Your daddy's rich, and your mama's good-looking..." ]

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Thank you Mark for the links. I had already found the “Femles in the Fellowship” but the “Fair Sex” thread by Child is a gem. We should, I think, consider the current thread as a revival of that one.

Imladris: I’m not sure that Rosie and Goldberry are sufficiently distinct from the other women to constitute radically alternative visions of women’s roles. I think instead that Rosie is very much a hobbity/’lower’/more everyday version of the type exemplified by Arwen – that domestic woman who awaits the return of her hero, is won by him, and rewards him with marriage and children. Goldberry is, I think, a fairy-tale version of Galadriel – although her relationship with Tom is certainly of a more equitable and interesting nature than is Galadriel’s with Celeborn.

You said that

We all do the same things it seems. It doesn't matter whether we be male or female. It's the choices we make. And there are three choices to be made: to sit back and let evil win, to fight it, or to join it. And both men and women did that. The only thing that differed was how they did it.

I tend to agree with this, but I’m not sure that it really answers my question about the roles of women. I agree wholeheartedly that the women and men “do the same thing” but what do you mean by the fact that “how they did it” differs? Is the ‘manner’ in which the women hold to their faith and hope different from the men? Are the men and women maintaining faith in different things? And why is it that the men maintain their faith by doing whereas the women maintain their faith by waiting?

Or, maybe it’s more that the men have faith in the cause/quest and the women have faith in the men?

A very nice point about female beauty Esty, but it’s not just confined to the women: the men are all beautiful as well, if they are good, and ugly if they are evil. It seems that the stereotype is more moral than gendered. It’s interesting, though, that Sauron was once beautiful, masking his inner evil – is this in any way like Galadriel, whose goddess like beauty at first hides her true desires, but which she justifies by rejecting the Ring?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Probably an irrelevancy to this thread, but...

while it's not Middle-earth, in the legendarium the Ainulindale and Valaquenta
have an interesting slant on a kind of female empowerment, even up to the
level of the Vala. Consider Varda:

Out of the deeps of Ea she came to the aid of Manwe; for Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected him, and he hated her, and feared her more then all others whom Eru made.

And Manwe and Varda have complimentary and reinforcing powers when
they work together in concert. An echo of Tom Bombadil and Goldberry?

[Mithalwen]

May I give Ioreth a further mention. She is admittedly a fairly minor character but she gets a fairly raw deal, I think. She is seen as a somewhat ridiculous figure prattling away and self important, but I think that prattle is a habit of those who are seldom listened to. Remember that she is (apart from Eowyn) the only named woman in the city and the city is a warzone, so she is actually quite brave. It is reasonable to assume that the only family she has are the mentioned sisters. She represents another category - the women whose work and worth are unappreciated, in a society where unmarried and unmarriagiable women have little staus. She is the Miss Bates of LOTR useful only for the care of the sick and a butt of humour; and a very good reminder for women of my generation to be grateful for the feminists of earlier generations........

[Child of the 7th Age]

A very nice point about female beauty Esty, but it’s not just confined to the women: the men are all beautiful as well, if they are good, and ugly if they are evil.

Fordim -

Are you certain about this? Remember Tolkien's quote regarding Strider and the fact that he looks 'foul' on the outside. This could just be referring to his dirty clothes and face, yet I don't remember anywhere else that Tolkien describes him as a "looker". I can't put my fingers on specifics, but the fleeting references to Sam always left me with the impression that he was more good hearted than good looking. Also, the book Frodo is described as "perky and red cheeked", a bit taller and more slender than your average Hobbit. Physically, that would be pleasant enough, but nothing to create screaming fangirls.

I think the key here is what Esty says: when we first encounter a particular woman in the story, Tolkien is careful to give us a description of her physical characteristics (either via the narrative or through the eye of a particular beholder). This description is generally quite pleasing, unless the character happens to be Shelob! He is far less likely to dwell on the physical description of the male characters. Because of this, I have a clearer mental image of Goldberry in my head even thought she's a relatively minor character, than either Faramir or Boromir.

The Hobbits as a whole are described as pleasant and cheerful rather than good-looking. Perhaps, Tolkien thought of them as typical of the garden variety folk who inhabit our world today. But nowhere in his writing does he develop the theme that Lewis did so wonderfully in Till We Have Faces with the exploration of what beauty and ugliness meant in the lives of two sisters. There are times when this theme of physical versus true beauty comes up in myth and fairy so the basic idea would not be wholly alien to the spirit of his work.

Perhaps it is greedy of us to ask him to do so: he has so many themes that he handles so masterfully, and a story can't be everything to everyone. Yet I always ask myself why Tolkien put something in or left it out: was it something that he did not consider important to explore or did it simply not fit into this particular framework.

[Mister Underhill]

Just a quick note: Fordim, in your otherwise very excellent post to start the thread, I think you unfairly characterize Éowyn as a sellout for renouncing her warrior's ways and getting married at story's end. Female empowerment and marriage are not mutually exclusive. And to be fair to her, everyone becomes more or less "passive" after the War. Aragorn packs away his dirty cloak and dons king's robes, Gandalf gives up his tireless journeys to and fro all over Middle-earth, Frodo hangs his sword on the study wall. It's Faramir, after all, who proposes building a garden in Ithilien. I expect that Éowyn didn't hypocritically transform into a meek baby-making machine; I'm betting that Faramir had his hands full with his "wild shield-maiden of the North" in a marriage of equals.

[Mithalwen]

Well said Mister Underhill - and I would also say that Eowyn doesn't become passive but merely changes direction. I don't think we could assume she would devote herself to promoting life as a healer and gardener with any less passion and energy than she gave to bringing death to the enemies of her land. Nor do I think she stops being a feminist either because she fulfils her femininity as a wife and mother as well as her humanity. And while Faramir may not have a docile wife, you can't imagine him trying or wanting to break her spirit as his own mother's spirit was broken. They are a complementary pair and have about the only relationship to envy in the canon.

[tar-ancalime]

Excellent thread topic, Fordim. However, I must disagree with you on a few points. (I seem to be doing this a lot lately--I promise, I'm not following you around the Downs looking for things to disagree with!)

First, regarding Eowyn: You suggest that at the end of the story she "goes back" on her previous feminist stance. To be a feminist, though, does not mean to wish to live as a man. Mr. Underhill said it very well:

Female empowerment and marriage are not mutually exclusive.

You are quite right to point out that Eowyn has some great lines lamenting her inequality, but the warrior role she temporarily assumes can be just as much of a cage as her earlier traditional role. What she wants, what will empower her, is choices. She freely chooses to marry Faramir; that is just as important a choice as riding into battle. The point, I think, is that had she stayed in Rohan marriage would have been pressed on her. She would not have had the option of refusing, though she might have had her choice of suitors (which makes me wonder--do we know anything about the courtship customs of the Rohirrim?).

It's true that men don't seem to have complete freedom of choice, either (I don't recall any stay-at-home dads in LOtR, for example), but they certainly have more choices than the women do. Frodo chooses to bear the Ring, Boromir chooses to travel with the Fellowship, etc.

Next. regarding Shelob, you said that she possesses

feminine power that does not check itself, and must be checked by men.

But as you said yourself, Shelob's power could not have been destroyed without the light given by Galadriel. I think that it matters very little who was bearing the light, but it is very significant that when Sam unveils it he invokes Elbereth. Shelob's power is not really checked by Sam, but by the Phial of Galadriel and the name of Elbereth.

I really like the comparison of Arwen to Penelope. It invites another--three weavers=the Fates?

Mithalwen, thanks for bringing up Ioreth. I also think she gets a bad rap. Not to mention the fact that when Aragorn enters the Houses of Healing, she is supplanted in the exactly the same way as Denethor.

[Bêthberry]

I am sneaking in with a very quick comment about Eowyn. Tar-ancalime, you suggest that what Eowyn wants is choice and that back in Rohan she would not have choice. That is quite right. There were no other royal or noble families in Rohan from which she could have picked a husband. She had to look elsewhere. And her choice was invariably wound up with nobility, a Prince of Ithilien. And I would agree with Mr. Underhill that married life does not automatically exclude female empowerment. However, the context of Eowyn's marriage is clearly to suggest that she will return to a domestic sphere. It strikes me that Mr. Underhill is clearly engaging in imaginative extrapolation of the text when he envisages a feisty wife for Faramir. I don't sense any Lion in Winter suggestions here. (drat the book is not at hand to provide authoriative backing for my strongly stated position.)

I believe Eowyn is the only female character who is shown to be confused. She is conflicted about the men she is attracted to. And she is the only female character who is shown to be conflicted about the opportunity available to her. Does any other female character in LotR makes mistakes? (Yes, yes, we all know about how Galadriel is redeemed, but that miraculous reinvention takes place outside the trilogy.)

We are shown Goldberry happily ensconced in marriage with Tom. Arwen patiently waiting for Aragorn (her desperation and woe do come, but in the Appendices, to forestall any of you who wish to correct my point above () and even then she is not shown to be in err but to wish to forestall the inevitable.) There is never any question (in my mind at least) that Galadriel will fail the test. Sweet Rosie happily becomes a baby machine. (Why doesn't Eowyn have a baker's dozen? Are things different for the rich and wealthy?)

In short, in my snappy mood right now, I would concur with Master Hedgethistle that Eowyn is more a sympathetic depiction of a woman who is unhappy with women's lot--and made sympathetic because she renounces her ways--than any sort of suffragette. Feminist manqué.

I would quote from Tolkien's Letter to his son Michael where he offers a father's sage opinion about the other sex, wherein Tolkien states that women lack the capacity for original thought, but that wouldn't be fair now, would it, seeing as I don't think the letters are necessarily canonically authoritative.

My, I didn't think I had any lemon with my tea this afternoon.

[the phantom]

I just want to address one little thing that was said earlier.

And why is it that the men maintain their faith by doing whereas the women maintain their faith by waiting?

When you say "doing" should I assume you mean running around and fighting?

If that is indeed what you mean, Fordim, the answer is quite obvious.

In the Olympics this last summer do you realize that some of the women who won gold medals in running events would not have finished first in the Nebraska High School Boys Track Meet? Some of them wouldn't have even got a medal. The woman who won the gold medal in the 100 might not have even qualified for the final heat in our track meet. Yes, that's right. Multiple high school boys from one of the least populous states can beat the best women in the world in track.

Three years ago when I was playing more tennis I played a girl who won a couple of big women's tournaments in her state and I blanked her 6-0, 6-0.

So translate this to Middle-Earth. Would you really want a lot of women running around and fighting? If you say yes then I don't think you like women very much, because a lot of them would die if they were running around and fighting.

(and don't even start whining and saying I'm sexist, because I don't value men over women- I merely recognize physical differences between the sexes)