Gandalf vs. Sauron

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

I'm not sure whether or not Gandalf would be a match for Sauron, If Sauron had the Ring then it would certainly improve his chances by at least 50%, but maybe Gandalf could pull it off but I personally think it's unlikely.

[obloquy]

I'm not sure whether or not Gandalf would be a match for Sauron, If Sauron had the Ring then it would certainly improve his chances by at least 50%, but maybe Gandalf could pull it off but I personally think it's unlikely.

Based on what? Do some research, cite some sources. Look at the arguments I linked to above and give responses to the points made therein, instead of arbitrary, meaningless, ignorant, regurgitated speculation.

[mark12_30]

Obloquy, you have provided a wealth of information in those links. Thank you.

My apologies: for coming late to this debate, but also (and especially) for not providing numeric references for these letter quotes, below. I remembered the gist of the quotes and searched online for them, so they are not as complete as I would like. I hope to return to the letter during some spare time and glean for further information; perhaps another member of this thread will beat me to it. For those who do not have a copy of Letters, I cannot recommend the book highly enough. But then, I am known for my Letters-bias.

These quotes are simply the first thought that came to my mind pondering the question, and I hope they provide further impetus for the discussion.

(J.R.R. Tolkien in a letter to Mrs. Eileen Elgar - September 1963):

"Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good' and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great)."

J.R.R. Tolkien in a letter to Mrs. Eileen Elgar - September 1963

"Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master [Sauron]--being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form."

[obloquy]

Good quotes, mark, thanks for posting them. I agree with you about Letters: there's quite a wealth of information there that is often overlooked--even by me, in this case.

[the phantom]

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master [Sauron]--being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form.

This quote gets used a lot but is it that meaningful? I have a problem with that quote that focuses on the use of the word "expected".

First, saying "expected" requires an opinion- the opinion of the people who are doing the expecting if you get my meaning. Tolkien did not say "Gandalf might beat Sauron", he said "Gandalf might be expected to beat Sauron". This requires the presence of an opinion on whether or not Gandalf could defeat Sauron. Tolkien is commenting on this opinion.

Tolkien then gives a reason for this opinion- "being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order".

So the quote seems to mean "Gandalf is an Ainu just like Sauron and he was sent by the Powers to challenge Sauron so he is someone who people might expect to master Sauron."

It does not say "Gandalf would beat Sauron", "Gandalf might beat Sauron", or even "Gandalf has a slight chance at beating Sauron". It simply says "Gandalf might be expected to beat Sauron".

Expectations can be wrong.

And also, notice the "might". That certainly does not lend strength to the quote.

The quote does not seem to be particularly solid so its importance should be lessened.

[Boromir88]

I'm not sure whether or not Gandalf would be a match for Sauron, If Sauron had the Ring then it would certainly improve his chances by at least 50%, but maybe Gandalf could pull it off but I personally think it's unlikely.

Obloquy:

Based on what? Do some research, cite some sources. Look at the arguments I linked to above and give responses to the points made therein, instead of arbitrary, meaningless, ignorant, regurgitated speculation.

I happen to agree, that is a meaningless pointless comment. But, whether you or I think it's meaningless or pointless, doesn't matter, this is a forum, people can post their own opinions. I never knew "citing sources" to support our opinion was a requirement? Sure, it helps your opinion, but one can still post an opinion without "supporting" it, whether it is a meaningless opinion or not.

[obloquy]

Tolkien frequently spoke in this way--he liked to evoke the impression that his world was its own living thing, the exact laws and parameters of which not even he could absolutely define. However, the quote is really just saying that if anyone had the potential to overcome Sauron, it was Gandalf alone.

So what, though? The argument does not hinge in the least upon one's interpretation of the quote that mark has provided. The quote merely adds one more minor piece of support. I have provided ample argument for my (Gandalf's) camp; ample argument, I believe, to place the burden of proof squarely on the shoulders of Sauron's supporters. So let's have it.

[obloquy]

I never knew "citing sources" to support our opinion was a requirement? Sure, it helps your opinion, but one can still post an opinion without "supporting" it, whether it is a meaningless opinion or not.

Maybe it isn't required, but it should be. If you refuse to provide any textual backing for your assertions, you can be confident that whatever you post will be dismissed (at least by those of us who know better) as the inane and unwelcome prattle of children who are sitting in on an adult conversation.