Sage Hobbit movie advice for PJ?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by phantom

I disagree with this notion. I have never sat down to watch a movie and thought "There'd better be a love interest."

I'm not talking about what you, or I, or anyone else here expects from a film. I am talking about what the general film-going public expects from a film. Or, more accurately, what the film studios and financiers think the general film-going public expects from a film. But you would expect them to get it right, given the amount of money at stake and the resources that they have to gauge public opinion.

Like I asked before, did any of you, while reading Bilbo's tale, actually stop and notice that there was no love interest?

It was written primarily as a children's tale (albeit one which adults can enjoy too). As I said, if the film is made as a children's film, the question of love interest won't arise.

Personally, I would be quite glad if they did a film of The Hobbit without shoe-horning in a love interest, particularly as it is difficult to see where and how it would work. But I have my suspicions.

When you take a perfectly good story and try to add unnecessary things it just ruins it because the additions rarely mesh cleanly with the original ...

I don't disagree with this as a general proposition, although it can work. I thought that some of the additions in the LotR films worked very well.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

originally posted by TSM
" I thought that some of the additions in the LotR films worked very well."
------------------------------

Yes. Boromir was a more appealing character (I don't recall the Lorien scene
being in the book?), and even XenaArwen generally made movie sense
(except for excising Frodo's line at the Ford) and her initial scene was the
sexiest bit in the 3 movies.

And you have to be realistic. A PJ big budget movie will incorporate elements to
have it appeal to as wide an audience as possible. I can understand the
phantom's frustration, though. A personal irritation to me is the almost
inevitable car chase/fight put in movies to appeal to young "Nascar sons"
(it was absurd in Will Smith's movie version of I, Robot).

And one more suggestion for PJ: In an echo of the well-done prologue to
FOTR, how about one in which Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur, meets Thrain, and
gets the map and key to the back door of Erebor?

[Mithalwen]

A little depends on wether it is done as a prequel to the LOTR films - which would mean it made sense to have all the white council stuff - or as a "stand alone" film which happens to feature characters and elements of the lotr films, where the white council would be a needless distraction. Also if he kept it as a children's film (since The Hobbit it is a children's book ), there is even less need for love interest - and the viloence should be toned down. Personally I would love it to be done as one of those wonderful Sunday afternoon children's serials . There are all the little cliff hangers that would lend themselves to serialisation. to I wouldn't shrink the number of Dwarves, although as in the books somewould be more distinctive than others ... Dori and Bombur for example.

Sadly I think Ian Holm is perhaps too old but would it be too confusing to have Billy Boyd, the oldest and most physically similar of the Hobbits? I am sure with a different accent ... I would like Jason Isaacs as Thranduil, Alan Rickman as the Master of Laketown (and maybe Smaug), Hugh Jackman as Bard the Bowman. Maybe J R-D could do Dain if he didn't want to do a bigger dwarf part - or maybe Beorn. I

[lindil]

No Aragorn or Arwen. Bad chronology and destined only to be cheesy.

Who wants to see posters of the Hobbit w/ Bilbo, Gollum and Aragorn and Arwen!

Emphasizing all of the many threads we find in Unfinished Tales material:

The Thranduil/Celeborn and Galadriel split . Thranduil seemingly inherited his father's anti-Noldorin bent and may have blamed the continuing problem of Sauron on the Ring technology which Noldor [galadriel's cousin [[2nd or 1st once removed?]]. Legolas can enter in subtly I would hope could that is probably more than we can hope for.

The above tension may be why Gandalf never specificaly tells Thorin how to get to Thranduil and out of the Forest [the trail ended mysteriously in the swamps after the last earthquake].

...Opening scene...

We would begin w/ Gandalf stealthily in Dol Guldor sneaking into the HQ to find Sauron [disquised as a wringwraith?] catching a peak of Sauron and meeting and receiving the map from Thrain in Dol Guldor, Sauron sends Orcs and such to follow the fleeing Gandalf down to the Anduin where and elven boat whisked him away as stray arrows whizz about, or better yet a rolling white mist aids the escape [and echoing Eorl's being aided by Galaldriel].

Gandalf is then seen conversing with Galaldriel and the White Council.
Saruman's dissembling hinted at.

Celeborn asks what can be done about driving him out, and Sauruman asking [slyly taunting?] why his kinsman Thranduil will not help especially as Sauron is in his Forest. Yes we all know the stated 'boundaries' of his realm, the forest north of the Old Road. 'Outside of it we no longer have for the concern the Exiles of The West, Eldarin and Edain have caused and stirred up. Period.


"Surely some way can be made to reunite us with one of the few allies in this region we should have, and for the Second Age did".
Perhaps a Glorfindel or Elrond... That kind of thing, but much better written I hope, and then as we see



Gandalf saying he would follow a few leads and then we cut to Bilbo at Bag End and Gandalf coming up the path and bidding him good day as Bilbo begins a painful and pitiful process of making a fool of himself in front of Gandalf and soon here after the Dwarves.

And so on.

I would stick pretty close to the book and re-use the Dwarf and Orc armies PJ will already need in the end to give us a meaty flash back of the basic events of the War of the Dwarves and Orcs over the execution of the Thror [my grand father says Thorin and the last King under the Mountain].

We would see the Dwarves do their ensemble and Baritone/Bass/Contrabass harmonies [I would make it somewhat reminiscent of the 3 part harmonies of the Georgian Orthodox Church. Angular, sonorous, but taking suprising turns, i have ne ver heard the folk music there. But it might be even more similar.

Should the destruction of Erebor be shown yet and Smaug the Magnificent be revealed early on, via's Thorin's recounting? I say no. Maybe a rush of wings and distant fire and hurrying refugees, perhaps a destructive sweep of a tail through clouds, battering the towers of Dale...

Gandalf and Thorin arguing [from The Quest for Erebor] once Bilbo was carted off from his fit....



Bree would be an interesting way point and a chance for us to see how isolated Bilbo has been as he encounter the Big People in Breeland, and maybe a last stop at the forsaken Inn and a glimpe of serious Ranger activity and perhaps a Troll alert posted on the front of the Door to the Inn!

After that a way most be figured out, i think to make use of the mockery of Thorin and Co. ,but eliminate the actual lyrics and childishness of the elves.

I would do it pretty straight from the Book till the Caves of Thranduil and hopefully PJ and Howe and Lee can catch the Avarin/Sylvan(east Elf) feel of the Elves there. Legolas can perhaps lead the band that captures the Dwarves...

Well something like that I would like, but my expectations are much lower.



to those who suffered through the first draft, my apologies...

- L

[Tuor of Gondolin]

"Gandalf and Thorin arguing [from The Quest for Erebor] once Bilbo was carted off from his fit...."
-------------------------
I like that concept as a way to bridge the children's Hobbit and adult LOTR.
I rather doubt PJ has read works like UT (especially footnotes, too much work )
but I think there are hints that P. Boyens and/or Fran Walsh have. It could
work as a prologue, especially to get non-book attendees up to speed on The
Hobbit and its connection to LOTR.

Suggestions like Ian H's of a tv limited series would work well but I think there's
just too much $$$$$ in movies (and more scope for PJ's pyrotechnics, which is
both good and bad- since he seems to get carried away with battle scenes).
Still, the Battle of Five Armies is almost tailor-made for him, especially with the
big finale with Beorn.

[Encaitare]

After that a way most be figured out, i think to make use of the mockery of Thorin and Co. ,but eliminate the actual lyrics and childishness of the elves.

Oh, goodness me, yes. Please, no "tra-lally-lally, down here in the valley"! Poor Elrond must have been driven mad by all that infernal singsong, no wonder he went over the Sea!

[the phantom]

I'm not talking about what you, or I, or anyone else here expects from a film. I am talking about what the general film-going public expects from a film.

We are the general film-going public. I understand that in respect to this specific movie we are not terribly typical movie fans, but aside from Middle-Earth movies we are the general film-going public, so what you and I expect from movies in general is no different than what others expect.

And I, for one, am not expecting anything from this movie other than what I expect from every other movie I watch. Every time I sit down to watch a movie I expect just this- a good movie. I think you do too. I think everyone does- and I also think most people are like me in that they don't care what's in the movie as long as it's good.

If a movie has no violence in it but is entertaining then the lack of violence doesn't matter. If a movie has no developed male characters but is entertaining then the lack of a developed male character is not noticed.

The same thing goes for movies that lack a love interest.

I posted-

Like I asked before, did any of you, while reading Bilbo's tale, actually stop and notice that there was no love interest?

and you answered-

It was written primarily as a children's tale....

I don't see how that has anything to do with my question. Perhaps it answers why there isn't a love interest in the story- but it doesn't address my query in the least.

I ask again, did anyone (or would you expect anyone to) read The Hobbit (or any enjoyable book) and note the lack of a love interest? If a book is blah then I might think "This book needs something, maybe a love interest" but if the book is good then I think "This book is great...I can't wait to see what happens next." I don't notice anything that isn't there if I'm into the story.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Encaitare

Oh, goodness me, yes. Please, no "tra-lally-lally, down here in the valley"! Poor Elrond must have been driven mad by all that infernal singsong, no wonder he went over the Sea!

Tril-lil-lil-lolly, or bust. Give me the songs from the trees, and make them merry, and I want to see the dancing on the riverbank on Midsummer's Eve. Or I'll riot... solo if need be.

For all you Tra-la-la-lally detractors, I refer you to the Hobbitons, "The Valley". A finer improvisational-style drinking song can hardly be found. And it's no wonder, after that, why Bilbo insisted on listening to the elves. Every time I hear that one elf in the background hysterically laughing his way off of his tree-branch, I laugh too.

"Don't dip your beard in the foam, father, it's long enough already!"

[Hookbill the Goomba]

If the white counsel is involved, I think they would probably show all five wizards, i.e. we'd get to see ol' Radagast, Alatar and Pallando. As was said earlier, Tension between Gandalf and Saruman could be shown (And perhaps that scene from UT between Gandalf and Saruman [including Saruman's comments on hobbit weed]).

This would be good for book readers to see as well as explaining a few things to moviegoers.

Moreover, The Riddles in the Dark would be an interesting scene, how they would tie it in to the scene in the prologue of Fellowship would be difficult. Perhaps cut it so that it shows Bilbo finding the ring, having the riddle game, and then when Gollum discovers his missing precious, you see Bilbos reaction to "lose! My precious is lost!".

That’s my opinion any way.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

"Gandalf and Thorin arguing [from The Quest for Erebor] once Bilbo was carted off from his fit...."
-------------------------
a tv limited series would work well but I think there's
just too much $$$$$ in movies (and more scope for PJ's pyrotechnics, which is
both good and bad- since he seems to get carried away with battle scenes).
Still, the Battle of Five Armies is almost tailor-made for him, especially with the
big finale with Beorn.

I know that the movie money means that this is unlikely to happen - I just feel that it will be so simplified to get it down to a child friendly length and that the story as it stands would fit the format so well. I quite agrre about the battle scenes being excessive - I mean they spent more time on the cave troll than Lorien

[Zebedee]

There should be no Arwen in it, but 10 year old Aragorn making an appearence would not be bad at all, nor would Legolas making an appearence. Maybe at the Battle of Five Armies?"
Also, the Wargs should look more like the wolves they are.

I'm sure that The Hobbit will do well whatever they do.

[Gil-Galad]

It'll probaly start like Gandalf meeting thorin and discussing about Erebor, then like gandalf saying "i'll find your new member" or something, then it cuts to Bilbo just waking up and having a regular time then he hears the knocks on the door

thats what i think might happen...