LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 03 - The Ring goes South

[Boromir88]

I had thought that Sauron or maybe the Witch-king stirred up the storms on Caradhras. Aiwendil, if I'm taking what you said wrong, then please correct me, but here's what I mean...

I speak of Saruman's spell, causing the storm on Caradhras.

And here's what I think would make me realize Sauron or the WK caused the storm.

The Ring goes South
"I wonder if this is a contrivance of the Enemy," said Boromir "They say in my land that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow that stand upon the borders of Mordor. He has strange powers and many allies."
"His arm has grown long indeed," said Gimli, "if he can draw snow down from the North to trouble us here three hundred leagues away."
"His arm has grown long," said Gandalf.

Here we have Boromir saying, Sauron stirs storms in the mountains around Mordor. Gimli says Sauron's arms grown long if he can trouble Caradhras and the mountains so far, and Gandalf says "his arm has grown long." To me that suggests, Gandalf believes Sauron is troubling the storms. Now, Gandalf isn't always right, so Aiwendil, I would love to see where you found how Saruman stirred the storms, because I could be missing something.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Interesting citations by Boromir, but I've been inclined towards Aiwendil's
views of Caradhras and the autonomous Middle-earth forces (for good and ill),
and also with distaste for PJ's having Saruman "control" Caradhras, for reasons
cited by A. above.

Gandalf's reply is actually somewhat ambiguous, also, he is Gandalf the
Grey, with incomplete knowledge of facts. And remember the false rumors
of Rohan's voluntarily sending horses to Sauron.

A quote indicating Caradhras's generally autonomous nasty nature:

'Caradhras was called the Cruel, and had an ill name,' said Gimli, 'long years ago, when rumour of Sauron had not been heard in these lands.'

And a (possible) hint that Caradhras has its own agenda for causing snow,
apart from Sauron's:

It is the ill will of Caradhras. He does not love Elves and Dwarves, and the drift was laid to cut off our escape.

And it's interesting to see what an active (positive) role Boromir has in this
chapter, (without even scooping up the ring).

[Encaitare]

Boromir, what Aiwendil meant was that in the movie FotR, it was Saruman who was causing the snow to fall on Caradhras, not in the book.

[Aiwendil]

Boromir88 wrote:

Now, Gandalf isn't always right, so Aiwendil, I would love to see where you found how Saruman stirred the storms, because I could be missing something.

As Encaitare said, I was referring to the change Peter Jackson made. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Tuor identified some reasons to think that the snow storm was not caused by Sauron; I agree with these. Of course, it's never made entirely clear. And that contributes somewhat to the realism.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

But anywhen . . .

Notice Frodo's use of the phrase "I do" when Elrond asked him to reafirm his commitment to be Ringbearer? I might just be the better choice of words, but it eerily sounds like Frodo is binding himself to the Ring in marriage.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Tar-Ancalime

All of which brings up another interesting conjecture--by sending out his own hand-picked Company of Nine against the other Nine, is Elrond setting himself up as the symbolic enemy of Sauron? It's not too implausible--he's one of only a few First-Agers still around at this point in the story, he's a Ring-Bearer, he's certainly the master of one of the more powerful realms remaining in the world. And at least temporarily, the Ring is in his house, not Sauron's.

But why does Sauron choose Nine chief servants?

Speculation: there were originally Nine chief Valar including Melkor, before he was cast out, so maybe Sauron was setting himself up as a symbolic rival to Eru?

Of course, nine is three times three, & we all know how many times three crops up in the Legendarium - 3 silmarils, 3 elven rings, 3 branches of the High Elves, of the hobbits, of the Edain, 3 ages, 3 continents - Middle earth, Numenor & Aman, 3 kinds of men according to Faramir - high, middle & low, the three farthing stone, 3 kinds of pipe weed......etc, etc, etc. I won't go on, but its clear that 3 is the most symbolic number in Middle earth by a long way, & maybe this is significant in Eru's creation of Nine supreme powers - a 'trinity of trinities'

[Boromir88]

Aiwendil and everyone, thank you, I happened to read it wrong, and through rereading I can "see clearly now." In fact, Aiwendil I like the point you made about Caradhras.

But in the book the storm has the important function of providing depth, and thus believability, to Middle-earth.

As with the Old Forest and the Barrow-downs, we find that not all evil can be directly traced to Sauron. But more than that, it characterizes Middle-earth. For Tolkien, as some have observed elsewhere, the physical landscape is itself a kind of character. It has its own personality (or personalities); it can aid or obstruct our protagonists; it is a real presence that must be dealt with, the same as any character. The story of the attempted passage of Caradhras is the story of the defeat of a powerful wizard, a king, a warrior, an elf, a dwarf, and four hobbits by nature itself. It's foreshadowed earlier in the chapter

Good point, as been discussed before The Old Forest is sort of this magical place, seperate from the rest of Middle-Earth, it has this mystical feeling. As cited out by Tuor and Aiwendil it does seem as if Caradhras has this mind/will of its own. Very similar to that of The Ring, it offers people it's greatest desires. And once it's done with one person, it moves on to another. It also seems to have a will of it's own.