The Power of Isengard

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I think Saruman is being rather underestimated in this thread. While there is
considerable doubt about Elrond, Galadriel, Aragorn, et. al. defeating Sauron
using the Ring, Gandalf and Saruman were Maiar on, I believe, an equivalent
level with Sauron and could therefore have been essentially his equal, once
they would ignore the ban on their using their powers openly in Middle-earth.

[Thalionyulma]

True Saruman & Gandalf would be basically the same rank as Sauron. Saruman would possibly be capable of "mastering" the Ring... BUT, who's Will was the Ring made of?

The reason Sauron needed the Ring was to be made whole again. He had somewhat seperated his essence, dividing his power. In a sense the Ring had a Will of its own - that of its other self, the Dark Lord's.

No matter to whom the Ring ended up with... even with the powerful Wizard such as Saruman, I still think the Ring would have its way.

After all it was in Elrond's Counsel, it had been said that the ONLY way to destroy Sauron was to destroy the Ring (or made undone).

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Doesn't Tolkien explicitly say that no-one else on Middle-earth could have mastered the Ring? (I'm really sorry I can't actually be helpful by providing a quote. Perhaps an owner of the Letters can help us out here?)

[Boromir88]

Sure thing Eomer, this is a letter by Tolkien written to Eileen Elgar. I think it supports your idea.

In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himsefl. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of "mortals" no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the Palantir Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructivle form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance.

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the "Mirror of Galadriel", it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. IF so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self, was not contemplated.

One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.

[The Saucepan Man]

That letter suggests to me that, in circumstances where Saruman held the Ring, Sauron would probably prevail over him in a straight fight between the two. I had it in mind when I said:

It is conceivable that Saruman would have a chance, but the smart money would probably be on the Red Eye rather than the White Hand.

Saruman's only chance would be to muster a sufficiently large force to hold off Sauron's armies. That would require an alliance with the Free Peoples but, by that stage, Gandalf had already spread word of his treachery. As I said, they would surely only have feigned alliance with him to gain a chance of seizing the Ring.

[Boromir88]

I couldn't agree with you more SpM, Saruman one on one would not beable to destroy Sauron.

I think an important question would be, if Rohan and Gondor found out about Saruman's "ring claiming" would they too rush to fight Saruman? Not necessarily joining forces with Mordor, because I believe that would end bad. But, would the forces of good beable to rush to Orthanc, destroy Saruman before he becomes too strong, and then fend off Mordor? Or would that be too risky? Would Mordor try to wipe out anyone in it's path on the road to Isengard? There are plenty of questions, and plenty of possibilities.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I'm confused about the end of that part of the letter (thanks for providing Boromir). Is it saying that Gandalf would have been able to destroy Sauron? But how if the Ring survived?