Shadow Host vs. Sauron & Co.? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Tuor of Gondolin · 10-03-2004, 01:10 PM

This speculation is prompted by PJ's overuse of the Shadow Host (a.k.a.
The Dead Men of Dunharrow, Green Slime) but should be based on Middle-earth
books, not movies.
Presumably the reason JRRT didn't have the Dead Men go on to the
Pelennor Fields was that it would have made the efforts of Gonorians and the Rohirrim virtually irrelevant, unless...

Would they necessarily have been effective? The Corsairs were essentially an
autonomous force, not operating (I believe) under Sauron's or the nazguls'
direct control. It would seem probable that Sauron or the Nine wouldn't have
been effected by the Army of the Dead. But might Sauron or his nine lads also have countered the AotD's effect on Sauron's armies since Sauron's forces at the Pelennor Fields were pretty much being directly controlled by Sauron via his
nazgul surrogates? And was the AotD's efficacy by fear only ? Or could they use real swords with effect? My impression is it was fear alone, but I could
be wrong. And, of course, ignore PJ's Aragorn/King of the Dead's fencing bit.

Boromir88 · 10-03-2004, 04:06 PM

Tuor, I believe they were also only for fear, I imagine if they were of any other use Aragorn would have had them come to Pelennor. However, you are right, if JRRT put in the AotD at Pelennor, there would be no use for the Gondorians and Rohirrim being there. A point Tolkien wanted to show was the strength of men. The kingdom of men was growing, as we see with Helm's Deep, and Minas Tirith, both attacks of which PJ screwed up and made it seem Men couldn't have won without elves/green slime. PJ stuck to Osgiliath and Minas Tirith, in Gondor, which is understandable you don't want to make it complicated. But, there was much more to Gondor, the men from Lebennin waiting for the Corsair ships, Imrahil, the archers from Morthond, Forlong...etc.

Elladan and Elrohir · 10-03-2004, 09:23 PM

The Dead fulfilled their Oath. Their Oath was to fight against Sauron, and they fulfilled it by destroying the Corsairs. They could not be made to fight a war; it would go beyond their Oath and wasn't fair to them. That's why Aragorn allowed them to go.

Remember what they said: "To fulfil our Oath and have peace." They wanted to fight and get it over with, so they could finally rest in peace. And Aragorn let them, though certainly it must've seemed tempting to try and make them come with him to Pelennor. But I don't think they would have obeyed him if he had. They had fulfilled their Oath already, and he had no real control over them.

**The Saucepan Man** · 10-04-2004, 02:49 AM

There are some further thoughts on this issue here:

Aragorn's mistake concerning the army raised from the Paths of the Dead

Boromir88 · 10-04-2004, 04:32 AM

SpM, thanks for the link, but here's why I don't happen to agree with it.

Quote:

So... why not continuing the victory achieved in the Pelennor Fields with the aid of the Dead Army and go straight directly to Mordor to destroy Sauron's armies?

There are many answers for that, Elladan has already given one, and here's two more. As, I have said, Tolkien wanted to show the strength of men, the rise of men, something PJ did not do well, as he had the elves come in at Helm's Deep, and he had the Green Slime Army save the day. He made it seem without them, Gondor and Rohan would have fallen, I don't think Tolkien was trying to show that, he was trying to show the "time of men," the other races were declining, it was the time of men.

Second, it just kind of seems cheesy. There's this Latin phrase (please bear with my spelling) Deus ex machina, It stands for "god of machines." Basically, it's a term used in movie directing, when the director can't figure out how to solve a plot, so he pulls these supernatural beings that come in and kill everyone, sort of a sloppy way of putting it together. I think it would be cheesy of Tolkien if he just kind of had the AotD come and save the day, so that's why I much support the men that followed Aragorn from Lebennin.

Tuor of Gondolin · 10-04-2004, 07:45 AM

Excellent link above. I tried a search but missed that. The main theme on this
thread is well handled by the above link. Including the following, with an
interesting HoME note by JRRT on orcs greater resistance to the Dead.
===========================
Originally posted by Mister Underhill

Quote:
After redemption, it seems certain they wouldn't have been able to continue with Aragorn even if they desired to.
Which it seems highly unlikely that they would. Consulting HoME, with all the usual caveats, disclaimers, and cautions, may yield some clues to the professor’s thoughts on these matters.

In one version of Gimli and Legolas’s account of the events at Pelargir, Gimli claims, “...the Shadow Host halted and wavered, unwilling at the last, as it seemed, to make war on Sauron.” This was softened in the final text, where the Shadow Host “hung back at the last” without any explanation for their reluctance.

It’s reasonable to conclude that the Dead were bitter about having been cursed for centuries, and in any case they were cursed in the first place because they were faithless allies.Quote:
On their effectiveness, I'm very sceptical about the "scare factor."
Also from HoME: “But there were among them [the Haradrim] captains sent by Mordor, and orc-chieftains, and they were not so easily dismayed, and they endeavoured to hold their men to a defence.” These were removed from the final version, where there was no fight and the Dead ruled the field by fear, yet the reference supports the notion that the scare tactics of the Shadow Host would be much less effective against Sauron’s more hardened, non-human troops."
==========================

Boromir88 · 10-04-2004, 01:30 PM

Sorry, I made a mistake in my translation, I did some searching the correct translation for "god of machines" is...

Deus ex machina, so I will just edit my post, my mistake.

**The Saucepan Man** · 10-04-2004, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

There's this Latin phrase (please bear with my spelling) Deus ex machina, It stands for "god of machines." Basically, it's a term used in movie directing, when the director can't figure out how to solve a plot, so he pulls these supernatural beings that come in and kill everyone, sort of a sloppy way of putting it together.

Hmm, I wonder whether Tolkien himself ever used Deus ex Machina.

Boromir88 · 10-08-2004, 06:40 PM

Thanks for the link SpM, I think it's all about how you look at the phrase. If you look at it literally it means "god of machines," some sort of supernatural, creature from god/godlike being. And is used to solve a plot. Or some will look at it as just a "miracle."

If you look at it as a "miracle" then the best example might be Gollum destroying the ring. He happens to just slip and fall. In that few minutes when Frodo decided to claim the ring, all seemed to be lost, then just all of a sudden Gollum, in all his joy, slips and falls into Mount Doom.

If you look at it literally, I might need to do some searching, but I would think Tolkien would use this. Being a man who wrote on religion, I would think it's possible he would use it. Question is, is the Army of the Dead considered a "deus ex machina," a supernatural being from god? I wouldn't say so, they were cursed men, it wasn't like some "unstoppable" spirit like thing, they were once men, cursed. I wouldn't say they were from god.

10-03-2004, 01:10 PM	#1
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	Shadow Host vs. Sauron & Co.? This speculation is prompted by PJ's overuse of the Shadow Host (a.k.a. The Dead Men of Dunharrow, Green Slime) but should be based on Middle-earth books, not movies. Presumably the reason JRRT didn't have the Dead Men go on to the Pelennor Fields was that it would have made the efforts of Gonorians and the Rohirrim virtually irrelevant, unless... Would they necessarily have been effective? The Corsairs were essentially an autonomous force, not operating (I believe) under Sauron's or the nazguls' direct control. It would seem probable that Sauron or the Nine wouldn't have been effected by the Army of the Dead. But might Sauron or his nine lads also have countered the AotD's effect on Sauron's armies since Sauron's forces at the Pelennor Fields were pretty much being directly controlled by Sauron via his nazgul surrogates? And was the AotD's efficacy by fear only ? Or could they use real swords with effect? My impression is it was fear alone, but I could be wrong. And, of course, ignore PJ's Aragorn/King of the Dead's fencing bit. __________________ Aure Entuluva!

10-03-2004, 09:23 PM	#3
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	The Dead fulfilled their Oath. Their Oath was to fight against Sauron, and they fulfilled it by destroying the Corsairs. They could not be made to fight a war; it would go beyond their Oath and wasn't fair to them. That's why Aragorn allowed them to go. Remember what they said: "To fulfil our Oath and have peace." They wanted to fight and get it over with, so they could finally rest in peace. And Aragorn let them, though certainly it must've seemed tempting to try and make them come with him to Pelennor. But I don't think they would have obeyed him if he had. They had fulfilled their Oath already, and he had no real control over them. __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

10-04-2004, 02:49 AM	#4
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	There are some further thoughts on this issue here: Aragorn's mistake concerning the army raised from the Paths of the Dead __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

10-04-2004, 07:45 AM	#6
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	Excellent link above. I tried a search but missed that. The main theme on this thread is well handled by the above link. Including the following, with an interesting HoME note by JRRT on orcs greater resistance to the Dead. =========================== Originally posted by Mister Underhill Quote: After redemption, it seems certain they wouldn't have been able to continue with Aragorn even if they desired to. Which it seems highly unlikely that they would. Consulting HoME, with all the usual caveats, disclaimers, and cautions, may yield some clues to the professor’s thoughts on these matters. In one version of Gimli and Legolas’s account of the events at Pelargir, Gimli claims, “...the Shadow Host halted and wavered, unwilling at the last, as it seemed, to make war on Sauron.” This was softened in the final text, where the Shadow Host “hung back at the last” without any explanation for their reluctance. It’s reasonable to conclude that the Dead were bitter about having been cursed for centuries, and in any case they were cursed in the first place because they were faithless allies.Quote: On their effectiveness, I'm very sceptical about the "scare factor." Also from HoME: “But there were among them [the Haradrim] captains sent by Mordor, and orc-chieftains, and they were not so easily dismayed, and they endeavoured to hold their men to a defence.” These were removed from the final version, where there was no fight and the Dead ruled the field by fear, yet the reference supports the notion that the scare tactics of the Shadow Host would be much less effective against Sauron’s more hardened, non-human troops." ========================== __________________ Aure Entuluva!

10-04-2004, 01:30 PM	#7
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	Big mistake. Sorry, I made a mistake in my translation, I did some searching the correct translation for "god of machines" is... Deus ex machina, so I will just edit my post, my mistake.

10-03-2004, 04:06 PM	#2
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	Tuor, I believe they were also only for fear, I imagine if they were of any other use Aragorn would have had them come to Pelennor. However, you are right, if JRRT put in the AotD at Pelennor, there would be no use for the Gondorians and Rohirrim being there. A point Tolkien wanted to show was the strength of men. The kingdom of men was growing, as we see with Helm's Deep, and Minas Tirith, both attacks of which PJ screwed up and made it seem Men couldn't have won without elves/green slime. PJ stuck to Osgiliath and Minas Tirith, in Gondor, which is understandable you don't want to make it complicated. But, there was much more to Gondor, the men from Lebennin waiting for the Corsair ships, Imrahil, the archers from Morthond, Forlong...etc.

10-08-2004, 06:40 PM	#9
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	Thanks for the link SpM, I think it's all about how you look at the phrase. If you look at it literally it means "god of machines," some sort of supernatural, creature from god/godlike being. And is used to solve a plot. Or some will look at it as just a "miracle." If you look at it as a "miracle" then the best example might be Gollum destroying the ring. He happens to just slip and fall. In that few minutes when Frodo decided to claim the ring, all seemed to be lost, then just all of a sudden Gollum, in all his joy, slips and falls into Mount Doom. If you look at it literally, I might need to do some searching, but I would think Tolkien would use this. Being a man who wrote on religion, I would think it's possible he would use it. Question is, is the Army of the Dead considered a "deus ex machina," a supernatural being from god? I wouldn't say so, they were cursed men, it wasn't like some "unstoppable" spirit like thing, they were once men, cursed. I wouldn't say they were from god.