**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**

[Maédhros]

Posted by Findegil
I agree fulheartedly on the first part and I will try to answere the second part: If Melian does not remove the girdle and goes after the death of Thingol to Ossiriand to find Beren and Lúthien and then departes we have a timeline problem: during the time that elapsed between Thingols death and Melians depeature, what would the dwarves do? linger on the border of Doriath? That would ruin the surprise effect that is in my view needed for their success. If we have Melian by choice remove the girdle before she goes to Beren than we create a problem of motive: Why should she remove the girdle or if she did why should she then send Beren to a revenge. Thus the only logical explanation as Maedhros has understood for Melian to bring the meassage to Beren would be that she loosed here ability to protect Doriath and sought his help to rescue what ever could be rescued.
This would in my view mean that when we let Melian bring the message to Beren we would however ambiguous our text might be implicitly state that Melian lost her power with the death of Thingol. I do not say that this is impossible, but I would avoid any statement in that direction even if only given implicit.
For that reason I find it safest to let her depart without a visit in Ossiriand as it is in Sil77.

We have from the Tale of Years

Doriath cannot be entered by a hostile army! Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.

Let me try and clarify my reasons for wanting to retain the part as stated in the Tale and the Q30.
The Girdle is in place and somehow Thingol is lured outside of it and is killed. How does Melian notices that Thingol is dead? I think that it is safe to assume that the both of them are linked in some way that would allow Melian to know wether or not his hröa is destroyed or not.
Is the Girdle at this time automatically removed or do we need for Melian to leave for it to be gone?
1. If she would need to leave in order for the Girdle to be removed, why not warn the Elves of Menegroth about the slaying of their king in order to prevent an attack, surely they would all be aware of the dispute between them and the Dwarves of Nogrod. This would surely in some way lessen the surprise attack that Findegil posted above that seemed essential to their success.

2. If she was powerless to retain the Girdle, then the surprise element would indeed be in there and we would have no problem with her going to Ossiriand to warn Beren and Lúthien as she does in the Tale and the Q30.

Consider option 1 for a moment, if she still has the power to retain the Girdle, and she chooses to depart, why then can't she go to Ossiriand and warn Beren and Lúthien? To speak for the last time to her daughter and warned her about what happened in there? Does Melian has to be physically in Doriath in order for the Girdle to work?

Consider option 2, if she is powerless over the Girdle, there is no reason then for her not to go and warn Beren and Lúthien about what just happened.

My reason for wanting Melian to go to Ossiriand is that if we do not make the assumption that when Thingol was killed, Melian lost her powers over the Girdle, then in our text it would mean that Melian walked out on Menegroth, in a moment of great need, and I don't think that a great queen like she, would do that. To me it would diminish her character in a way that seems not right to me.

Of course, we also have the possiblity to assume that when JRRT says that Melian departs, it doesn't mean exactly that she must go to Valinor, but she could have make a stop in Ossiriand to warn Beren and Lúthien first.

Posted by Findegil
My reason to go back to a storyline discussion was very similar to that: Working on the text it self one is often carried way by the details and lose the validity out of sight. I see the further work done on this chapter now in quiet a nother way than before: First I saw that we would take a draft from Maedhros or my one and start working form that, but now I would rather take Q30 change what must be change to create the storyline produced here and then start to add details in accordance to our rules form whatever source. Our preliminary drafts will in the end only help to identify the materials that could be added for the sake of details.

I can live with this, but the Material from Q30 is very limited.