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Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
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#1 | ||||
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Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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Some other thoughts that occurred to me while reading this Chapter: The opening passage, as Frodo ponders Bilbo's friendship with Balin, reminds us of Bilbo's adventures and brings home to us that this is a very different, much darker adventure, indeed. The serious nature of the story that Tolkien is now telling is, I think, emphasised by the contrast. Another contrast between the story told in The Hobbit and that being told here occurs in the description of the Orcs. While the Goblins that Bilbo met were undoubtedly cruel and brutal, their evil nature was "played down" for the benefit of the intended audience. They seemed more like the nasty creatures of children's fairy-tales. Here, we meet Orcs for the first time in this book, and we are left in no doubt that they are highly dangerous and mercilessly cruel foes. The words used to name them, "Orcs" and "Uruks" are much less familar and (in a sense) "comfortable" than the word "Goblin". The first time they are mentioned is in reference to their scattered weapons in the Chamber of Mazarbul: "crooked" swords with "blackened" blades. But the most striking description is that of the Orc chieftain: Quote:
Interestingly, like the Watcher, the Orc chieftain makes straight for Frodo. Presumably, he is drawn to the Ring in the same way that the Orcs were drawn to Isildur in the tale of The Disaster of the Gladden Fields in Unfinished Tales. I wonder if there's any significance in the fact that it was Frodo who landed the first (successful) blow of the battle. One last random thought on Orcs. Tolkien describes their laughter as "like the fall of sliding stones". It was another falling stone which, arguably, alerted them to the Fellowship's presence in Moria. This description therefore links Pippin's "misdemeanour" at the well with the Orcs' attack. I think that it's notable that Tolkien spends a (relatively) long time having Gandalf read to the Fellowship from the Book of Mazarbul. Tolkien could simply have explained the fate of Balin's expedition in a few lines, and yet he goes into it at some length here (while at the same time giving us only tantalising glimpses of the events relayed). It seems to me that, once again, Tolkien is seeking to convey the sense of history. Moria is not just a location for an eventful passage in the Fellowship's journey. It is, within the story, a very real place with a very real history. Presumably, this was his reason also for wishing to include reproductions of the pages. (Thanks for the link, Encaitare. I shall have to study that at length. )Final thought: It's a nice touch that Legolas and Gimli echo the words of the Book of Mazarbul when the Orcs attack: "They are coming!" cried Legolas. "We cannot get out," said Gimli.
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Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
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#2 | ||||||
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Laconic Loreman
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Encaitare I'm glad you brought up that point about Legolas, I'm going to expand upon it just a tad. Quote:
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Then we have the quotes about Aragorn and Boromir. Quote:
Moving on... Quote:
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#3 | |||
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Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
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#4 | |
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Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
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Oooooo…very interesting thoughts on magic and spells: this will become more pronounced a topic, I think, when we get into the ‘magic’ land of Lothlorien and get all caught up in the debate between the “art” of the Elves versus the “deceits of the Enemy”. The interesting thing about the current chapter is how Gandalf and the Balrog seem to be using the same kind or manner of magic; they are ‘magical’ in the same way. Going back to my comments on the last chapter, in which I saw the description of Gandalf fighting the wargs as foreshadowing the Balrog, I think that we are here again being show how alike or connected they are to one another. The manner of their battle brings this out too: they are both connected to fire, one good and one bad – but still, they operate very much in the same way.
The resonance of the word “doom” in this chapter is great, but also telling. Doom comes from the Old English dóm which doesn’t just mean ‘a bad thing happening’ but actually means “judgement”. I shall quote the full reference: Quote:
It would appear as though judgement is being passed upon both. The Balrog is finally receiving the judgement that was passed upon it by the Valar when they entered Middle-Earth to destroy Morgoth, and Gandalf is the tool of this judgement. But Gandalf also falls into the abyss and receives judgement insofar as he passes through the ordeal and is judged worth to return to the world as Gandalf the White. In the confrontation between these two figures there’s a certain settling of accounts as things are ‘put to rights’? But there are more judgements being passed, or that have been passed. The Dwarves received their ‘doom’, their “unfavourable judgement” for having “delved too deeply, and too greedily” in the first place and for having attempted to do so again. The sum total effect of all this is that it introduces the idea of judgement into the quest; the idea that there is beginning a time in which judgments shall be passed and things will be put to rights – the Balrog will be destroyed – but not without a terrible price being exacted – Gandalf’s fall. Frodo is also being judged through his trial with the Ring, and this trial is prefigured by the confrontation between the Balrog and Gandalf: will Frodo fall into darkness and become a “thing of shadow” like the servant of Sauron, or will he fall through that darkness and emerge, like Gandalf, as a “vessel of light, for those with the eyes to see”? It is crucially important, I believe, that Frodo goes into Mordor not knowing that Gandalf has been reborn – for Frodo, he spends the rest of his story poised upon the Bridge of Khazad-DUM (doom), caught between the twin judgements passed upon the Balrog and Gandalf. One Last Thing: this chapter proves quite conclusively that Balrogs have wings, so we can lay that tired chestnut to rest! ![]() EDIT: I've had cause to go back into our earlier discussions today and I've noticed something about them; our discussions of earlier chapters seem to have been more concerend with matters thematic, while our current discussions are more about the artistry and 'technical' skill with which Tolkien put the story together. I'm wondering if this is perhaps a reflection of the way the story is being told? I'm tempted to think of LotR as a symphonic piece. Book One is the opening movement in which not much 'happens' in turns of narrative, but all of the themes are introduced, the groupings/pairings and important patterns are established, and the 'piece' is placed in context (allusions are made, backgroud established, tempo is set, etc). Book Two is he allegro movement in which the important themes are glimpsed from time to time, but the motive of the movement is to thrill us with the possibilties of extension beyond the rather confining parameters of the opening. The Gandalf theme, for example, so heroic and wise, is placed into an awkward harmony with the Balrog, and both fall into oblivion, which allows the hints of melancholy and darkness, held at bay in the first movement, to be brought to the fore. I hope that this makes some sort of sense and does not sound hideously flaky and/or 'precious' . I'm curious where the next movements will take us, musically. . .But to return to the purpose of this edit: is it possible that Book One is a more meditative reflection upon the themes, while Book Two is an emotive narrativisation/dramatisation of those themes? If so, will Book Three prove to be a return to a meditative mode in which themes are (re)introduced and expanded upon, before their dramatisation in Book Four, and then on again to Books Five and Six???
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Scribbling scrabbling. Last edited by Fordim Hedgethistle; 10-14-2004 at 02:49 PM. Reason: Adding some thoughts on pacing |
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#5 | ||||
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Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 11
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Very interesting points you have their guys. This chapter, to me personally, was one of my best chapters. I got me thinking in a different perspective.
I really think the incident of the Balrog and Gandalf has blinded us from the rest of the meaningful things in this chapter that should be noted. Quote:
The hobbit Sam is in love with the race and is not skilled in the art of their language. I would suppose that Sam wanted to learn, but education reasons held him down, lets not stay still on this point though. I first thought that Ori used the Elvish characters as a means of attack on the elves, then I though: Why? It must have been a rare gift, to know Elvish, I guess. Gimli knew it was Ori right away. Perhaps that Ori was the only one to know Elvish among the other dwarves. Perhaps. Dwarves are beginning to surprise me as much as men were surprised with Hobbits :P Moving on! Here is one of my favourite quotes Quote:
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But, this orc, this leader, was brought down with one hit. One simple smack over the head had done it. At first, I never thought that “the blade that was broken” really held that much power. I was proved wrong. A flash like flame, ripping through metal as if it was butter, bursting the helm asunder, digging through the thick skin of the orc leader, very powerful blade. Then again, a powerful blade must have a person strong enough to handle it. Again, Aragorns power shines on me like the sun on a bright day. Hail Anduril! Flame of the West! One more point I would like to point out, and I really apologize for my long post. Quote:
Although I should have expected the elf to see better than the dwarf, my dreams were once again shattered. That is all I have to say, and again, I apologize for talking too much.
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|+|+++++++++++++++++++++++++++|+| If the whole world is against me, then I too, am against the world. |+|+++++++++++++++++++++++++++|+| Last edited by Mark; 10-15-2004 at 06:31 AM. Reason: Horrible Spelling :=\ |
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#6 | |
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Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
Posts: 1,814
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Dwarves and Elvish
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)Don't apologize for a long post! I thought it was quite good.
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#7 | |
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Laconic Loreman
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I think another thing interesting, or strikingly odd about dwarves is they have good endurance. This is something I was quite mad at PJ about, just because you got a short chunky dwarf doesn't mean he can't run. It just sickens me to see Gimli huffing and puffing and lagging behind the prancing elf saying "dwarves are natural sprinters." Come on PJ!
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