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Old 10-12-2004, 05:58 PM   #1
The Saucepan Man
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Originally Posted by Aiwendil
Actually, the chapter as a whole is rather short - eleven and a half pages in my edition - despite the fairly high number of events that occur. There is the reading and discussion of the Book of Mazarbul, the preparation for an attack, the attack itself, flight from the chamber, the bridge, the confrontation with the Balrog, and finally flight into the sunlight. This is in sharp contrast to the preceding chapters, which generally dealt with one obstacle at a time.
Indeed, the action in this Chapter is relentless. Even the reading of the Book of Mazarbul, which is (in one sense) exposition, concerns a tale of conquest, tragic death and desperate defence. In previous Chapters, the "action sequences" have generally taken place before or after periods of travelling conveyed through descriptive passages interspersed with dialogue. But here, the dialogue and descriptive passages are intimately connected with the action, which is at the fore throughout the whole Chapter. To me, it represents a culmination of the tension that has been building up at least since the Fellowship left Rivendell (and arguably before). While the Fellowship has met various foes and challenges on the way, this Chapter brings its greatest challenge yet, one which (as Encaitare notes) instils the fear in even its strongest members and, indeed, claims the strongest of them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Encaitare
Gandalf, being one of the central characters in this chapter, shows his strength through being able to fend off the Balrog, but we understand that his power has limits when he returns to his companions after trying to seal the Chamber. He says that he has met his match, and that he is "rather shaken." We can only imagine what kind of force it could take to shake someone so steadfast and powerful as Gandalf, which foreshadows the future danger to come.
As in the previous Chapter, we see that Gandalf is not omnipotent. There is a power here (subservient, or at least inferior, to Sauron), which can challenge him. Again, this helps to bring home how desperate their situation is. Gandalf cannot protect them all the time and, indeed, he no longer remains with them to do so by the end of the Chapter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
To what extent these ideas affected Tolkien in the depiction of the Balrog - at least as far as his choice of having a Balrog present in Moria - is impossible to answer. I think that someone as interested as Tolkien was in folklore, would have been aware of Sikes’ book, & of the phenomenon of fire-damp (the explosive gas which builds up in mineworkings, which is mostly methane) & choke-damp (the poisonous gas, principally carbon di-oxide).
I don't doubt that you are correct, davem. But it does seem to me that Tolkien is, with the Balrog, tapping into something much more immediate to his readers. The impression conveyed is of a demon from hell. Practically every representation of the Balrog that I have seen, courtesy of numerous illustrators and down to Jackson's films, portrays it in demonic form. Tolkien never mentions that it has horns or other classic demonic features, and yet they inevitably turn up in visual representations of it. I don't think that this is mere coincidence and it is only partly explained by later artists having been influenced by earlier ones. It is the (tantalisingly limited) description which Tolkien gives that conveys this impression. All he needs to tell us is that it is a dark creature of shadow wreathed in flame. We fill in the gaps ourselves.

Some other thoughts that occurred to me while reading this Chapter:

The opening passage, as Frodo ponders Bilbo's friendship with Balin, reminds us of Bilbo's adventures and brings home to us that this is a very different, much darker adventure, indeed. The serious nature of the story that Tolkien is now telling is, I think, emphasised by the contrast.

Another contrast between the story told in The Hobbit and that being told here occurs in the description of the Orcs. While the Goblins that Bilbo met were undoubtedly cruel and brutal, their evil nature was "played down" for the benefit of the intended audience. They seemed more like the nasty creatures of children's fairy-tales. Here, we meet Orcs for the first time in this book, and we are left in no doubt that they are highly dangerous and mercilessly cruel foes. The words used to name them, "Orcs" and "Uruks" are much less familar and (in a sense) "comfortable" than the word "Goblin". The first time they are mentioned is in reference to their scattered weapons in the Chamber of Mazarbul: "crooked" swords with "blackened" blades. But the most striking description is that of the Orc chieftain:


Quote:
His broad flat face was swart, his eyes were like coals, and his tongue was red: he wielded a great spear.
In just one sentence, Tolkien sums up the ugliness, inhumanity and cold cruelty of Orc kind. And this chieftain is clearly powerful. Despite being less than man-size, he is able, with one thrust of his shield, to throw Boromir (a man who we have come to associate with physical strength) to the ground. These are no fairy-tale Goblins!

Interestingly, like the Watcher, the Orc chieftain makes straight for Frodo. Presumably, he is drawn to the Ring in the same way that the Orcs were drawn to Isildur in the tale of The Disaster of the Gladden Fields in Unfinished Tales. I wonder if there's any significance in the fact that it was Frodo who landed the first (successful) blow of the battle.

One last random thought on Orcs. Tolkien describes their laughter as "like the fall of sliding stones". It was another falling stone which, arguably, alerted them to the Fellowship's presence in Moria. This description therefore links Pippin's "misdemeanour" at the well with the Orcs' attack.

I think that it's notable that Tolkien spends a (relatively) long time having Gandalf read to the Fellowship from the Book of Mazarbul. Tolkien could simply have explained the fate of Balin's expedition in a few lines, and yet he goes into it at some length here (while at the same time giving us only tantalising glimpses of the events relayed). It seems to me that, once again, Tolkien is seeking to convey the sense of history. Moria is not just a location for an eventful passage in the Fellowship's journey. It is, within the story, a very real place with a very real history. Presumably, this was his reason also for wishing to include reproductions of the pages. (Thanks for the link, Encaitare. I shall have to study that at length. )

Final thought: It's a nice touch that Legolas and Gimli echo the words of the Book of Mazarbul when the Orcs attack: "They are coming!" cried Legolas. "We cannot get out," said Gimli.
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Old 10-12-2004, 07:31 PM   #2
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Interestingly, like the Watcher, the Orc chieftain makes straight for Frodo. Presumably, he is drawn to the Ring in the same way that the Orcs were drawn to Isildur in the tale of The Disaster of the Gladden Fields in Unfinished Tales.
SpM, interesting, so would you say that is an effect of the ring? That forces of evil are drawn to it? To ultimately kill the ringbearer, quite possibly losing the ring? Or getting it into the wrong hands?

Encaitare I'm glad you brought up that point about Legolas, I'm going to expand upon it just a tad.

Quote:
"Ai, ai!" wailed Legolas. "A Balrog, A Balrog is come!"
Quote:
Gimli stared with wide eyes. "Durin's bane!" he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
Quote:
"A Balrog," muttered Gandalf. "Now I understand." He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. "What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.
First I'd like to say with the quote on Gandalf, we can already see some sort of foreboding evil to come to Gandalf. In the previous chapter he stayed up all night on watch, and now Tolkien describes Gandalf as "faltering" tired as he "leans on his staff," and even admitting he's weary.

Then we have the quotes about Aragorn and Boromir.

Quote:
The dark figure streaming with fire raced towards them. The orcs yelled and poured over the stone gangways. Then Boromir raised his horn and blew. Loud the challenge rang and bellowed, like the shourt of many throats under the cavernous roof. For a moment the orcs quailed and the fiery shadow halted. Then the echoes died as suddenly as a flame blown out by a dark wind, and the enemy advanced again.
Very interesting wording used here by Tolkien. First we get to see the might and power behind Boromir's horn. As it makes the orcs quail and even halts the Balrog in his tracks. Also, the interesting wording of the when the horn blew he used the word "challenge." While the horn "echoed" and "bellowed" throughout the orcs and the Balrog in a way were losing the "challenge." Then the next line "The echoes died as suddenly as a flame blown out by a dark wind," very nice, the challenge of the horn didn't last long, and as soon as it was out, they advanced. Mithalwen, I might post this on your Music and Magic thread, could hold an interesting point, about the "challenge" of Boromir's horn. As here we get to see the true power behind the horn, and then later again at Amon Hen.
Moving on...

Quote:
Aragorn and Boromir did not heed the command, but still held their ground, side by side, behind Gandalf at the far end of the bridge.
Also, Encaitare, as you said, we have the two men of the company standing to help fight the Balrog. Of course we know it's a valiant proposal, but also utterly stupid. However, the question I ask, we have the Elf and Dwarf quivering in terror, the two men standing tall, is this a symbolism of the strength of men, and the fading of elves and dwarves?
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Old 10-12-2004, 08:54 PM   #3
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Ring

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Originally Posted by Boromir88
SpM, interesting, so would you say that is an effect of the ring? That forces of evil are drawn to it? To ultimately kill the ringbearer, quite possibly losing the ring? Or getting it into the wrong hands?
Well, we know that the Ring is able to influence those around the Ringbearer and not just the Ringbearer himself. In an Author's note to The Disaster of the Gladden Fields, Tolkien writes:


Quote:
Yet many have thought that the ferocity and determination of [the Orcs'] assault on Isildur was in part due to the Ring. It was little more than two years since it had left [Sauron's] hand, and though it was swiftly cooling it was still heavy with his evil will, and seeking all means to return to its lord (as it did again when he recovered and was re-housed). So, it is thought, although they did not understand it the Orc-chiefs were filled with a fierce desire to destroy the Dunedain and capture their leader. (emphasis added)
So Tolkien is suggesting here that, when "active", the Ring is able to draw Orcs to it as a ploy to find its way back to its master, even though they have no conscious awareness of its presence. No doubt this would be fairly easy since Orcs would presumably have little will to resist it. The emboldened text shows that the Ring was once more "active" while borne by Frodo. It is quite possible, therefore, that it wilfully drew the Orc chieftain towards Frodo. And this may well also explain why the Watcher in the Water attacked the Ringbearer first (an event significant enough to merit consideration by Gandalf).


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Originally Posted by Boromir88
However, the question I ask, we have the Elf and Dwarf quivering in terror, the two men standing tall, is this a symbolism of the strength of men, and the fading of elves and dwarves?
Or that Elves and Dwarves knew more about Balrogs than Men.
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Old 10-13-2004, 08:10 AM   #4
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Oooooo…very interesting thoughts on magic and spells: this will become more pronounced a topic, I think, when we get into the ‘magic’ land of Lothlorien and get all caught up in the debate between the “art” of the Elves versus the “deceits of the Enemy”. The interesting thing about the current chapter is how Gandalf and the Balrog seem to be using the same kind or manner of magic; they are ‘magical’ in the same way. Going back to my comments on the last chapter, in which I saw the description of Gandalf fighting the wargs as foreshadowing the Balrog, I think that we are here again being show how alike or connected they are to one another. The manner of their battle brings this out too: they are both connected to fire, one good and one bad – but still, they operate very much in the same way.

The resonance of the word “doom” in this chapter is great, but also telling. Doom comes from the Old English dóm which doesn’t just mean ‘a bad thing happening’ but actually means “judgement”. I shall quote the full reference:

Quote:
1. doom, judgment (1) where an opinion is formed, (2) where sentence is passed, (2a) of an unfavorable sentence, condemnation, ordeal, judicial sentence, decree, ordinance, law, custom; justice, equity; a sentence, doom;
This raises, for me, the interesting question of upon whom is judgement being passed, and by whom? And here I go with the whole Gandalf/Balrog connection.

It would appear as though judgement is being passed upon both. The Balrog is finally receiving the judgement that was passed upon it by the Valar when they entered Middle-Earth to destroy Morgoth, and Gandalf is the tool of this judgement. But Gandalf also falls into the abyss and receives judgement insofar as he passes through the ordeal and is judged worth to return to the world as Gandalf the White. In the confrontation between these two figures there’s a certain settling of accounts as things are ‘put to rights’?

But there are more judgements being passed, or that have been passed. The Dwarves received their ‘doom’, their “unfavourable judgement” for having “delved too deeply, and too greedily” in the first place and for having attempted to do so again.

The sum total effect of all this is that it introduces the idea of judgement into the quest; the idea that there is beginning a time in which judgments shall be passed and things will be put to rights – the Balrog will be destroyed – but not without a terrible price being exacted – Gandalf’s fall. Frodo is also being judged through his trial with the Ring, and this trial is prefigured by the confrontation between the Balrog and Gandalf: will Frodo fall into darkness and become a “thing of shadow” like the servant of Sauron, or will he fall through that darkness and emerge, like Gandalf, as a “vessel of light, for those with the eyes to see”? It is crucially important, I believe, that Frodo goes into Mordor not knowing that Gandalf has been reborn – for Frodo, he spends the rest of his story poised upon the Bridge of Khazad-DUM (doom), caught between the twin judgements passed upon the Balrog and Gandalf.

One Last Thing: this chapter proves quite conclusively that Balrogs have wings, so we can lay that tired chestnut to rest!

EDIT: I've had cause to go back into our earlier discussions today and I've noticed something about them; our discussions of earlier chapters seem to have been more concerend with matters thematic, while our current discussions are more about the artistry and 'technical' skill with which Tolkien put the story together. I'm wondering if this is perhaps a reflection of the way the story is being told?

I'm tempted to think of LotR as a symphonic piece. Book One is the opening movement in which not much 'happens' in turns of narrative, but all of the themes are introduced, the groupings/pairings and important patterns are established, and the 'piece' is placed in context (allusions are made, backgroud established, tempo is set, etc). Book Two is he allegro movement in which the important themes are glimpsed from time to time, but the motive of the movement is to thrill us with the possibilties of extension beyond the rather confining parameters of the opening. The Gandalf theme, for example, so heroic and wise, is placed into an awkward harmony with the Balrog, and both fall into oblivion, which allows the hints of melancholy and darkness, held at bay in the first movement, to be brought to the fore.

I hope that this makes some sort of sense and does not sound hideously flaky and/or 'precious' . I'm curious where the next movements will take us, musically. . .

But to return to the purpose of this edit: is it possible that Book One is a more meditative reflection upon the themes, while Book Two is an emotive narrativisation/dramatisation of those themes? If so, will Book Three prove to be a return to a meditative mode in which themes are (re)introduced and expanded upon, before their dramatisation in Book Four, and then on again to Books Five and Six???
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Old 10-15-2004, 06:29 AM   #5
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Very interesting points you have their guys. This chapter, to me personally, was one of my best chapters. I got me thinking in a different perspective.

I really think the incident of the Balrog and Gandalf has blinded us from the rest of the meaningful things in this chapter that should be noted.

Quote:
Gandalf: “Let me see! No, they are too cut and stained; I cannot read them. We might do better in the sunlight. Wait! Here is something: A large bold hand using the Elvish script.”

“That would be Ori’s hand,” said Gimli, looking over the wizard’s arm. “He could write well and speedily, and often used the Elvish characters.”
Oy! Since when does a dwarf want to learn Elvish? :P

The hobbit Sam is in love with the race and is not skilled in the art of their language. I would suppose that Sam wanted to learn, but education reasons held him down, lets not stay still on this point though.

I first thought that Ori used the Elvish characters as a means of attack on the elves, then I though: Why?

It must have been a rare gift, to know Elvish, I guess. Gimli knew it was Ori right away. Perhaps that Ori was the only one to know Elvish among the other dwarves. Perhaps.

Dwarves are beginning to surprise me as much as men were surprised with Hobbits :P

Moving on!

Here is one of my favourite quotes

Quote:
Anduril came down upon his helm. There was a flash like flame and the helm burst asunder. The orc fell with a cloven head.
This really brought me into the realizing of Aragorns power. We have this orc, leader of them all, the one and only. Meh, I’d better just quote the book, again.

Quote:
A huge orc-chieftain, almost man-high, clad in black mail from head to foot, leaped into the chamber. His broad face was swart, his eyes were like coals, and his tongue was red; he wielded a great spear.
That is the correct definition of the orc, I’m afraid. He brought Boromir down, and stabbed Frodo into a wall. Must have been pretty powerful.

But, this orc, this leader, was brought down with one hit. One simple smack over the head had done it.

At first, I never thought that “the blade that was broken” really held that much power. I was proved wrong. A flash like flame, ripping through metal as if it was butter, bursting the helm asunder, digging through the thick skin of the orc leader, very powerful blade.

Then again, a powerful blade must have a person strong enough to handle it. Again, Aragorns power shines on me like the sun on a bright day.

Hail Anduril! Flame of the West!

One more point I would like to point out, and I really apologize for my long post.

Quote:
They went on again. Before long Gimli spoke. He had keen eyes in the dark.
Again, the dwarf surprises me. Although it is obvious that they must have had good sight, for they stayed underground for many a days, mining. It was the first time though, that it was written in stone for my naked eyes to see.

Although I should have expected the elf to see better than the dwarf, my dreams were once again shattered.

That is all I have to say, and again, I apologize for talking too much.
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Last edited by Mark; 10-15-2004 at 06:31 AM. Reason: Horrible Spelling :=\
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Old 10-15-2004, 01:31 PM   #6
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Dwarves and Elvish

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Oy! Since when does a dwarf want to learn Elvish? ... It must have been a rare gift, to know Elvish, I guess. Gimli knew it was Ori right away. Perhaps that Ori was the only one to know Elvish among the other dwarves.
Well, it would be unusual for a Dwarf to know how to speak an Elvish tongue. This is supported by Gimli's quick realization that it was Ori who wrote the passage. But here, Ori is only using the Tengwar, the Elvish alphabet. This is also unusual, but not as much so. (Hey, I can write it, why not a dwarf? )

Don't apologize for a long post! I thought it was quite good.
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Old 10-15-2004, 01:57 PM   #7
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I think another thing interesting, or strikingly odd about dwarves is they have good endurance. This is something I was quite mad at PJ about, just because you got a short chunky dwarf doesn't mean he can't run. It just sickens me to see Gimli huffing and puffing and lagging behind the prancing elf saying "dwarves are natural sprinters." Come on PJ!

Quote:
(Hey, I can write it, why not a dwarf? )
Very intersting Encaitare, I don't get into that stuff, but my niece (who by my work I turned into a reader of LOTR) can translate fairly well .
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