LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 06 - Lothlórien

[mark12_30]

Yet another connection:

"Roads go ever ever on,
Over rock and under tree
By caves where never sun has shone
by streams that never find the sea."

By the time Bilbo sang this, he had been through Rivendell twice. Going East, he spent "fourteen days at least" in Rivendell, and "I wish I had time to tell you even a few of the tales or one or two of the songs that they heard in that house". During his westward return trip he spent a week there, "and he had many a merry jest and dance, early and late, with the elves of the valley."


I wonder how much that influenced his song. Gollum's cave certainly fits the description "Caves where never sun has shone" (and I suppose one could also argue that in Gollum's cave are also found "streams that never find the sea." Nevertheles, to me, the third line says "Moria" and the fourth, "Nimrodel." The two are bound, because it was from the chaos caused by the awakening of Durin's Bane that Nimrodel fled, til Amroth proposed to her on the borders of Fangorn. I wonder; did he end up connecting his own story to the Greater Story, to the lasting themes beloved of the elves that he heard during his times in Rivendell?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

So much to say, so much to read, so much to address in this wonderful chapter: *pant* *pant*.

'Perilous indeed,' said Aragorn, 'fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them. Follow me!'

I think that this comment is directed by Aragorn straight at Boromir, for he knows that Boromir, for all of his warrior’s abilities and nobility of heart, suffers from one of the greatest weaknesses in Men of this age: ignorance. Boromir doesn’t know about the Golden Wood, just as he didn’t know about the Balrog; Boromir is utterly ignorant of the conflict between light and dark that this chapter is so much about. Lord Melkor makes the interesting point that Boromir’s ignorance of the Balrog makes his charge more heroic than Aragorn’s which becomes by comparison foolhardy – to that, I would argue the contrary: it takes a brave man to charge a Balrog! (And you know what, given who Aragorn is, I think he might have stood a chance!) I’m afraid on this one I must agree with my esteemed colleague Bêthberry: Boromir is an admirable Man, but one who is interested primarily, if not wholly, in himself and his own land: his vision is narrow, and as a consequence he sees himself as a big fish in what turns out to be a pond smaller than he had supposed.

The word “perilous” is, of course, wonderful, for it sets up Lorien not as a dangerous place, but as one that is full of risks; it’s risky entering the Golden Woods, unlike going into Moria which is just downright dangerous. Like all risks, the dangers are offset by possible rewards. Nothing is given in Lorien without a commensurate price being paid (the Fellowship is admitted, but they must go blindfolded; they gain shelter for a time, but Gollum is now following them).

This leads me into another important comparison that I think is taking place in the chapter. The comments so far on the relationship between Dwarves and Elves have been wonderful, but what about the connection being stated between Lorien and the Shire?

'Welcome!' the Elf then said again in the Common Language, speaking slowly. 'We seldom use any tongue but our own; for we dwell now in the heart of the forest, and do not willingly have dealings with any other folk.'

'We had not heard of -- hobbits, or halflings, for many a long year, and did not know that any yet dwelt in Middle-earth. You do not look evil!'

Switch the words “Elf” and “Hobbit” in the above two quotes, and the speaker could easily be Ted Sandyman rather than Haldir! The Elves of Lorien seemingly have the same kind or parochial attitude as to the Hobbits: they are inward looking and concerned primarily with the preservation of their own world. In this way, they are a lot like Boromir as well, who knows little of the lands beyond Gondor and cares to know even less. In fact, of all the members of the Fellowship, it is only Aragorn (now that Gandalf is gone) who not only has knowledge of all these various realms, but who is welcome in each and is able to traverse them.

Frodo makes the distinction between Rivendell as a land of “memory” and Lorien as a place where “the Elder Days” still exist. This is the continuation and perhaps the fulfilment of his move from the Shire, where he got his first real ‘history lesson’ – he’s moving from history (the distanced and objectified relation of the past) through memory (personal/individual apprehension of the past) to actually being in the past. davem has already magnificently addressed the nature of Lorien as a timeless realm so I shall not duplicate his points here. I will merely add to this point the observation that from this point of the narrative and following, the company will move away from this timeless ‘heart’ and into the realm of history once more. It’s almost as though, having moved from history to the personal experience of the past, the company is now fully prepared to participate in that continuing history.

This chapter ends with one of the most affecting moments in the book; it gets me every time:

And taking Frodo's hand in his, he left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there never again as living man.

This moment always reminds me of the affinity between Frodo and Aragorn; they are two very different kinds of heroes, but there are some important commonalities. For Aragorn, Lothlorien is his Shire: it is where he is content, and where he would like to remain at his ease forever, but it is his doom to leave this place forever in order to save it. Both Aragorn and Frodo gain through the course of their trials a wider vision of the world – Aragorn has already achieved this, while Frodo is on his way toward this wider view. The consequence of this larger apprehension, however, is the loss of the easy innocence which allows others to remain within the closed borders of their world. It’s telling that it is Frodo and Aragorn who stand atop Cerin Amroth and see ‘the lay of the land’ for they are the two heroes who are on journeys that will end with a full view of the world. The rest will be able to retain some of their innocence, some of their limited view, and retreat within the comfortable confines of their homes at the conclusion. At the same time, I think that Boromir is there as a warning against adopting too closed a view: by refusing to see wider or beyond, he falls to the peril of the Ring.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Fordie

The consequence of this larger apprehension, however, is the loss of the easy innocence which allows others to remain within the closed borders of their world. .... It’s telling that it is Frodo and Aragorn who stand atop Cerin Amroth and see ‘the lay of the land’ for they are the two heroes who are on journeys that will end with a full view of the world.

Also interesting that both Aragorn and Frodo, with their full view of the world, *choose* to depart it. Aragorn chooses to depart from a grey-stone bier in Rath Dinen, 'The Silent Street', leaving Gondor and Arnor to his son despite Arwen's tears (Arwen will depart from Cerin Amroth, oft mentioned above).

Frodo chooses to depart from the Mithlond pier and 'The Straight Road', leaving The Shire to Sam, despite Sam's tears.

Fascinating connection indeed, Fordie.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lalwende

The realm of Lothlorien is constructed upwards, out of the ground by making use of the trees and building within them; the elves use flets and live up high in the treetops as the ground is not a safe place to be. In Moria, the realm is built downwards, into the very roots of the earth. While the Elves are made safer by going upwards, towards the heavens as it were, the Dwarves are endangered by delving too deeply.

This is interesting - especially in that traditionally Elves do not live up trees, they also live under the earth, in the Hollow Hills. The traditional Elven dwelling is of the kind we find in Doriath, Nargothrond, & Mirkwood. But often entering the earth through a tunnel or passageway leads the traveller into another world, with stars, moon & sun shining within the earth. What we have in Moria is almost a descent into hell, ending with a confrontation with a demon. Adtually, living in trees seems quite an odd lifestyle - very 'Boy's Own', in fact - which of us didn't enjoy climbing trees, & who (if they didn't have one) wouldn't have loved a treehouse?

Symbolically, though, it does seem significant that danger is within the earth, & that 'salvation' is to be found in being as far away from the earth as possible.

Mirrormere is, as you say, different from Galadriel's Mirror, in its function & in what it symbolises. Mirrormere is 'passive' - it doesn't so much 'reveal' as merely reflect, & it reflects 'eternity' - days may pass, sun & moon may cross the sky, people may pass by & look into its depths, but it doesn't reflect any of that, it reflects only the depths of space, the mountains & the stars of Durin's crown. What that says about the psyche of the Dwarves, I'm not sure. Perhaps their choice of working in stone & metal is part of it, the desire to create 'permanence' (who knows, maybe in their secret hearts they desire to become things of stone, permanent, unchanging - physically 'eternal'. Elves focus on temporary things - trees, cloth, books, language. The mortal race seeks permanence, while the immortal race are drawn to the transitory. As Blake said 'Eternity is in love with the productions of Time' which would seem to sum up the Elves, & the corollary, that the 'productions of Time are in love with Eternity' perhaps sums up the attitude of mortals.

Originally Posted by Helen

. In this tale of two lovers (known and retold in three major elf-settlements) that sets the flet-lifestyle for all the elves of Lorien, and represents 'the heart of elvendom on earth'-- the stream never met the sea; that desire is unfulfilled in Middle-Earth.

Water is the significant element - it divides, & unites (there are watercourses to cross - many of them dangerous, but the two sides are linked by the water), it reveals (Galadriel's Mirror)& conceals (Mirrormere), it bars & allows access (ultimately the Sundering Sea itself).

As to Bethberry's & Fordim's points regarding the difference between Aragorn & Boromir, I must agree, up to a point. Yet, Aragorn, knowing his destiny, & his obligations, both to the Company & to his people, is undeniably reckless, & even if Boromir does not know the nature of the Balrog, he does display a selfless courage in the act of running to Gandalf's aid - no less than Eowyn displays in her defence of Theoden - & she has no more knowledge of what the Witch King is than Boromir does of the Balrog.

I was reading an extract today from anew book about the end of WW2, specifically describing the last defence put up by the Hitler Youth. Its reckoned that they were far more dangerous than the adult soldiers, & would often surrender & then throw concealed grenades at their 'captors', & they would fight on longer than the adult soldiers, & have far less sense of personal safety. Basically, they, at 12, 13, 14 years old had not developed adult sensitivities, like compassion, respect for life, retaining still that 'childlike' visciousness which can be seen in schoolyards across the world.

Now, I don't want to compare Boromir to a Hitler Youth, but I always feel there is that kind of childlike 'certainty' of being absolutely right, of being willing to fight to the end, & use any means to hand to win, no matter who suffers. Boromir to me is a man who has never really grown up. He sulks, expects to be the centre of attention, knows he's RIGHT, & can't believe everyone else is so stupid that they can't see it. He looks for glory in battle & probably never quite believs he could die, or that anything really bad could ever happen to him. It makes him a great warrior, but not the kind of person you really want around when things are peaceful - because if he is around things won't stay peaceful for very long. He certainly is admired for his prowess, loved by his kin & respected by his men, but he's simply not 'loveable' in himself. Lord Melkor is right up to a point:

Aragorn and Legolas too consider him to be a noble man (as evidenced by their eulogy in the Two Towers). In fact, Boromir is universally admired and respected by all who know him.

But, as Shippey (I think) has pointed out, the 'eulogy' of Aragorn & Legolas, doesn't ever say Boromir was a nice guy - He is 'fair', 'tall', 'bold', he 'fought many foes'. He will be missed by the people of his city - obviously - he is a great Captain, & they are fighting a desperate war. But can we imagine him in a settled, loving relationship, with children, ruling as Steward in a time of peace? No - well, I can't. Of the two, Faramir is the grown up. Boromir is a man who in a sense has been 'lucky' to have been born in wartime. His greatness comes only from the opportunities offered by war.

As to Bethberry's other point:

An interesting question, but one I think that can be answered by considering the nature of bringing evil. For now at least, the Fellowship is in control over that evil rather than being controlled by it. They themselves are not tarnished by the object. Thus, they themselves would have nothing to fear from the realm which opposes the Enemy who is the source of that evil. That is, the Fellowship and the Perilous Realm are in league together against that evil.

I'm not sure, & probably lean toward's SpM's position. The Fellowship do bring 'evil' into Lorien - the most evil (& dangerous) thing in existence (not that you'd know it by the way the rest of the Company act - forgetting Frodo & Sam & wandering off & leaving them on their own - imagine if some orc or warg had ambushed them & taken the Ring! Aragorn: 'OOPS! I knew there was something I was supposed to be doing back there!)

The Ring is taken into the 'heart of Elvendom on earth', & I suppose we can ask what the significance & symbolism of that is - the 'serpent' has entered 'Paradise' & temptation must inevitably follow. 'Middle earth's 'Eve' will be tempted by the power to become as God, but she is also Middle earth's 'Mary' & she will reject what is offered, choose the role of humble 'handmaid', pass into the West, & remain Galadriel.

[Guinevere]

One of my very favourite quotes is what Haldir tells the fellowhip:

The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair, and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater.

In the movie, they have Galadriel say "In all lands love is now mingled with grief." but characteristically left out the end of the sentence. "...it grows perhaps the greater"
Somehow this reminds me of the Silmarillion:
"Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Ea, and evil yet good to have been.

[Bêthberry]

How pleasant it is to find one's arguements developed and thoughtfully considered even when one was called away sadly without time for the Downs yesterday. I can now be the lazier for the work of my admirable, enthusiastic colleague, Fordim and davem's perceptive thoughts on the nature of who we call to be soldiers . (There's a pint for you at the Faculty Club after work on Friday One for Lord Melkor, too ).

Lord Melkor posted:
I'm afraid you're being too harsh on poor Boromir.

I suppose it is possible to see the word I used, 'hollow,' as too harsh, particularly if one has mainly in mind T.S. Eliot's use of the word, "We are the hollow men." Yet I did give Boromir his due, I think, and recognised his nobility. The distinction between Boromir and Aragorn is one that is subtle, I said, and so I don't think the point is simply that I did not recognise Boromir's strengths. What I was interested in was how he differs from Aragorn.

What I am getting at--and I am helped immensely not only by Fordim's reply about Boromir's lack of knowledge but by davem's point that Boromir is limited--is two things. First of all, we have a writer of the calibre Tolkien was using the son of Gondor as a foil to the returning king. This is to be expected almost. The Stewardship will be shown to be a heroic and noble effort but one that, in this long defeat, will succumb, as all in this world does, to its own downfall. It is the King who has his eye on the greater vision.

The second point which influenced my thoughts on Boromir was Tolkien's own essay on the Old English poem The Battle of Maldon--there's that wonderful post, an essay really, by the now absent Squatter of Amon Rûdh about Tolkien's concept of the heroic Northern ideal, the warrior-leader who abandons his rightful role as protector of his realm to engage in a chivalrous battle which turns the fate of nations and peoples into a personal competition. I am not sure how much we can specifically 'import' here to Boromir. Yet I think that it is helpful to consider the point that Tolkien had well developed thoughts on the nature of the heroic Northern Ideal. This does not mean that automatically we must dredge for them in LotR and risk raising our own form of balrog, but I think it is valuable to consider the depiction of Boromir within this light.

So, my point was not to deny Boromir's strengths and nobility but to suggest that Tolkien as a writer is engaging in some rather serious thoughts about the nature of the masculine ideal. In a book which holds up Frodo and Sam as the unexpected heroes--and which sees Eowyn and Merry defeat the Witch-King--I would think it would be quite plausible to consider whether Tolkien was rewrting the entire book on heroic ideal--something which would necessarily entail both a character who appears to be the most like the traditional ideal and who also carries in him the potential flaw of that ideal, the flaw of hubris. Boromir's conceit is never to question himself. (This is my way of saying Fordim's point that Boromir always thinks he is right.) Aragorn does this constantly, as does Frodo, and Sam, too, comes to consider the merits of choice offered to him. Boromir lacks this self-reflexivity. This does not negate his other admirable qualities, but it does limit them.

There are so many other very interesting points to consider here but yesterday's rude interruption on my Down's time has meant I am still catching up. I would ask one thing, though, which arises from davem's thoughts about Sauce's comment on the Fellowship bringing evil into the Perilous Realm. Why has this question become important for Lothlorien? Why did we not consider any symbolic meaning when the Ring was brought to Rivendell? (at least, I cannot now recall that we did.)

I shall return with a link to Squatter's essay: Squatter on Tolkien's "The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth"

[The Saucepan Man]

Some thoughts on the Boromir v Aragorn debate. I tend to agree with Lord Melkor that you were rather harsh on Boromir, Bêthberry, in your original post. Boromir is a man who undoubtedly possesses a great many admirable qualities. There has recently been a good discussion of these (as well as his less admirable qualities) in this thread: The 7 deadly sins vs. The 7 heavenly virtues. It did seem to me that you had rather skirted over these qualities, but I understand the point that you are making in your latest post. Undoubtedly, Boromir is flawed (and particularly in relation to his inability to question himself). But is that not the very nature of all in Middle-earth, indeed of Middle-earth itself, being as the whole of Arda has been tainted with Morgoth's evil? To my mind, this makes Boromir a far more credible character than Aragorn both within the context of the Legendarium and (as you will recall from the position that I took in the Psychological Depth in Tolkien's characters thread) as a character with which the reader can identify. It is also why I think it is important to note the moments where Aragorn is himself shown to have flaws (however minor). Given the extent of his knowledge concerning the nature of the Balrog, I would consider his foolhardy charge on the Bridge of Khazad-Dum as one of these.

I also take your point concerning Tolkien's approach to the heroic ideal. But there are also many other themes touched upon by Boromir's character which I think will merit consideration. These are perhaps best left until we reach the breaking of the Fellowship, Frodo's encounter with Faramir and the passages concerning Denethor and Faramir in Minas Tirith. But I did think it worth noting that, while we have seen aspects of his nobility, courage and fortitude in the preceding Chapters, we do not really get to appreciate the extent of his positive qualities until during and after his death. The first few times that I read LotR, I came away with the impression that Boromir was rather a villain. It was not until I had read it a few more times that I came to appreciate him as a far more complex and sympathetic character. And, to buck against the trend of pointing out the perceived shortcomings of the films in these discussions ( ), I would make the point that engendering reader/audience sympathy for Boromir is something that the films perhaps handled better than Tolkien himself.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I would ask one thing, though, which arises from davem's thoughts about Sauce's comment on the Fellowship bringing evil into the Perilous Realm. Why has this question become important for Lothlorien? Why did we not consider any symbolic meaning when the Ring was brought to Rivendell? (at least, I cannot now recall that we did.)

Well, I suppose that the point arises here because Aragorn specifically makes the point that those who bring evil with them into Lothlorien have something to fear. The Ring was expected in Rivendell since the decision as to what to do with it was to be taken there. And perhaps that, at least partly, provides the answer here. Galadriel is aware of the nature of the Quest and willing to offer refuge and comfort to the Fellowship. So, although they are bringing evil with them in the shape of the Ring, they are doing so with the permission of the Lady of the Wood.

I do also take Bêthberry's point that Aragorn's comment could be interpreted as referring only to those who bring evil with them within their heart. There is support for this in that (as Esty pointed out at the outset of this thread), the comment is directed to Boromir, whose heart has already begun to be corrupted by the Ring. But would not this apply to Frodo also, since we have seen that he is already powerless on occasion to resist the temptation to wear the Ring? He too is (quite understandably, given that he is the Ringbearer) succumbing to it.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Saucy, you neglect the other huge difference between Rivendell and Lothlorien -- the latter has Galadriel!

The peril and the beauty of the Golden Woods is much more completely tied to the nature of Galadriel than is Rivendell to Elrond, I think; and thus, it is indeed a perilous realm for those who enter, particularly for anyone foolish enough to bring with them the One Ring, insofar as Galadriel is a far more problematic (and interesting) figure than is 'Rondy. She has not yet been 'tested' by the Ring -- there is the peril that she will take it for herself (*Fordim rubs hands gleefully in anticipation of the next chapter*).

I made the point above the "peril" pertains to risk more than to danger, but I did not really approach the question of what this risk might be. I think that it's got to do with the risk of bringing the One into contact with the Lady -- you might just get the help you are going to require for the success of your quest (counsel, the Phial, the Cloaks, lembas, etc), but at the risk of the quest's eternal failure.

I think the difference between these two realms centres upon the fact that Rivendell is a place of lore: the past is in the past, it's over and Elrond has accepted that, however ruefully. As a result, Rivendell is wonderful but not nearly so miraculous (or even magical) as Lorien: nor as dangerous. In Lorien, as davem reminds us, the time/land of faerie is still the lived reality of the realm; the past is not past, but is now. In effect, Rivendell/Elrond have made the decision to forsake Middle-earth: they've accepted the fact of their long defeat. Galadriel/Lorien have not yet made that decision -- this land knows that an end is coming, but seems not quite ready to accept that yet.