Wizards' Pupils

[Encaitare]

probably Eomer too.

I'm sure he could be, especially since his son's name, Elfwine, means "elf-friend."

[tar-ancalime]

And this in turn brings me back to Eowyn: insfoar as she desires Aragorn she is following an essentially possessive and selfish desire -- she wants Aragorn for her self, so she can be free and happy, and have glory. Not bad desires, perhaps, but destructive. In the end, she moves past this desire (of and for the self) and toward a love with Faramir that allows her to think about and be part of a larger community, and to think of others: she will become the White Lady of Ithilien. . .which is, like I said, much like the Shire.

Thank you for this! This is the best explanation I've heard for the relationship between Eowyn and Aragorn.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I love it when a thread shows us something that we all already knew, but didn't really know.

This idea of desire versus love was really right under our noses.

One of those invisible, taken for granted things that came with the territory of good versus evil, and how it would affect relationships ...

I feel all enlightened.

Once more, I am amazed at Tolkien's characterizations.

And other than that ... I can't think of anything to further progress this thread.

Well ... maybe I can.

It has to do with noble intent.

Because I think Faramir got off to a much better start with Eomer than Wormtongue did, and that was a pretty smart idea.

As a matter of fact ... if Wormtongue had any intent of attempting to 'woo' Eowyn, he was kind of out of luck. Not just because he was a bad guy, but because before Theodred died, which was only days before we met the Rohirrim, Eowyn practically had TWO brothers.

And kind of repeating the whole topic, Wormtongue viewed her as a prize. Faramir was willing to endure scorn and whatever else just to be with her ("taming one of the wild women of Rohan" and that sort of thing).

And then, there's this little bit;

Wormtongue was a coward. Faramir may have abhorred violence, but he fought anyway, for his people, for everybody.

[Mithalwen]

Actually it was Legolas's intention to bring his people and their plants to gondor, and then creating gardens for Faramir and Eowyn that made me think of the Elves of Eressea bringing gifts, particularly the birds to Erendis and of her rejection of them along with her marriage.

[Halbarad]

I don't favour the idea that Aragorn was a 'wizard's pupil'. TA2956 Aragorn met Gandalf and they became friends. Aragorn was 25 at the time, but had lived at Imladris for 18 years, and had been travelling and lving in the wilds for 5 years. I seriously doubt that Gandalf had much to teach him. I mean, when you grow up with elf lords, your foster father is Elrond, and you get to hang out with Elladan and Elrohir, you would get a pretty well-rounded education. I would argue that Gandalf and Aragorn enjoyed a friendship, if not of equals, then one of mutual respect, whereas the Gandalf-Faramir relationship was more of a loremaster-student one.

A small point, mentioned in passing, but I cling to it.

[Boromir88]

Halbarad, here's a section from The King of the Golden Hall, and some other quotes...

"It is the will of Theoden," said Hama.
"It is not clear to me that the will of Theoden son of Thengel, even though he be lord of the Mark, should prevail over the will of Aragorn son of Arathorn, Elendil's heir of Gondor."
"This is the house of Theoden, not of Aragorn, even were he King of Gondor in the seat of Denethor," said Hama, stepping swiftly before the doors and barring the way. His sword was now in his hand and the point towards the strangers.
"This is idle talk," said Gandalf. "Needless is Theoden's demand, but it is useless to refuse. A king will have his way in his own hall, be it folly or wisdom."

'Do I not say truly, Gandalf,' said Aragorn at last, 'that you could go whithersoever you wished quicker than I? And this I also say: you are our captain and our banner. The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier than they: the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him. We will go where he leads.'

We can see through out these books (but I admit less in ROTK), that Gandalf instructs Aragorn, counsels him on the right desicions, and Aragorn learns humility and says "I am not the captain here, you are." The quote above is slightly different from the Aragorn we see earlier. When deciding on where to go, once Caradhras became a bad idea, Aragorn argued for a while about not going through Moria, then finally he agrees to go along. Here Aragorn doesn't question Gandalf at all, and says "We will go where he leads." Gandalf was very much like a mentor to Aragorn.

Aragorn was 25 at the time, but had lived at Imladris for 18 years, and had been travelling and lving in the wilds for 5 years. I seriously doubt that Gandalf had much to teach him.

No matter how old one is, or a man's education, you could always learn. This holds true in today's world, I am amazed at how much I've learned from my niece and nephew, or even just coaching baseball.