LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 07 - The Mirror of Galadriel

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

In terms of Galadriel's gender....yes, she certainly had marriage and a family. The marriage, however, is also depicted in a manner that is unusual for Tolkien. At the end of the story, we aren't sure where or when or even if she and her husband will come together. I can't think of too many "good guys/gals" in Tolkien who voluntarily separate themselves from their spouse! Tolkien is very careful to keep many of his characters single precisely because he does not want them to have the responsibilities of wife and hearth that would tie them down. "Good" married couples just don't go running off in two separate directions in Middle-earth. ~Child

Sorry to jump back a few posts here, but we also should remember Elrond and Celebrian’s separation. Granted Elrond eventually rejoins his wife, but it does open the possibility that this was culturally acceptable to elves.

(Still waiting for some one to bring up the founding the White Council And why Gandalf was not the head of it!)

[drigel]

(Still waiting for some one to bring up the founding the White Council And why Gandalf was was not the head of it!)

if Galadriel had her way he would have been..... alas that at the time Saruman outranked the Grey Pilgram.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Given that Galadriel called them all together, and her special gifts, it would seem that she might have had a greater say it its leadership. But I suppose being all about the enemy and Saruman’s specialty, he was the natural choice on two counts.

I was also curious whether mention was ever made of Celeborn’s having been included.

Apologies for side tracking a little with this train of thought, I have been enjoying the dialog even if I feel a bit like I'm a child sitting at the feet of the learned. So many interesting and creative ideas to ponder!

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle

Still waiting for some one to bring up the founding the White Council And why Gandalf was not the head of it!

From the chapter The Istari in Unfinished Tales:

Saruman is said (e.g. by Gandalf himself) to have been the chief of the Istari - that is, higher in Valinorean structure than the others. Gandalf was evidently the next in order.

It would, I suppose, have been difficult for Galadriel to challenge Saruman's status within Valinorean heirarchy.

It is notable, however, that Saruman (Curumo) volunteered for the task, whereas Manwe specifically named Gandalf (Olorin) and appears to have commanded that he should go:

But only two came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aule, and Alatar, who was sent by Orome. Then Manwe asked, where was Olorin? And Olorin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwe would have of him. Manwe replied that he wished Olorin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth. But Olorin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwe said that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olorin [Christopher Tolkien's note: illegible words follow that seem to contain the wrod "third"]. But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third"; and Curumo remembered it.

The final sentence is interesting. It seems that Varda, like Galadriel, considered that Saruman should not outrank Gandalf, whatever the heirarchy within Valinor. Had Galadriel known the precise circumstances of the appointment of the Istari, perhaps she could have relied on these to support a challenge to Saruman's leadership of the White Council.

Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle

I was also curious whether mention was ever made of Celeborn’s having been included.

Of course he would have been included. He was the wisest Elf in Middle-earth!

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Thank you Saucepan Man.

It is interesting to note that Saruman volunteered to become embroiled in ME's troubles and Gandalf went reluctantly. It does seem characteristic of Gandalf to give way to Saruman's leadership in the council as well. He doesn't seem to enjoy the limelight much, and it served him very well to be that way.

I enjoyed your "Final Word"! Very good use of expressive pictures!

[Boromir88]

Originally posted by Child-In terms of Galadriel's gender....yes, she certainly had marriage and a family. The marriage, however, is also depicted in a manner that is unusual for Tolkien. At the end of the story, we aren't sure where or when or even if she and her husband will come together. I can't think of too many "good guys/gals" in Tolkien who voluntarily separate themselves from their spouse! Tolkien is very careful to keep many of his characters single precisely because he does not want them to have the responsibilities of wife and hearth that would tie them down. "Good" married couples just don't go running off in two separate directions in Middle-earth.

Originally posted by Hilde-Sorry to jump back a few posts here, but we also should remember Elrond and Celebrian’s separation. Granted Elrond eventually rejoins his wife, but it does open the possibility that this was culturally acceptable to elves.

Don't forget trusty Sam either. Leaving a pleasurable life with 13 kids, for....Frodo?

[Lhunardawen]

Oh my goodness. I am too late! With no time to read all posts! Aaahh!

So please allow me to post, though I might have been repeating some points already...uh...pointed out.

The Fellowship's meeting with Galadriel and Celeborn begins with great gates that Haldir knocks on. And they opened soundlessly...though Frodo could not see a sign of any guards. Looking ahead (I'm sorry, Esty!) we'll encounter two more places with "automatic" gates: Meduseld in Rohan and the Citadel of Gondor. So what's with these gates? Are they a technology of the Elves that were somehow passed on to Men? Or are they merely typical of royal dwellings?

Walking on, we see an interesting structure of the dwelling...

...there stood the mightiest of all the trees...

Is this in some way alike to the tree-house the shipwrecked family built in The Swiss Family Robinson? Anyway, we see that the dwelling is so closely-linked to nature, as if they coexist.

The first impression I had of Galadriel and Celeborn was that they were intimidating. They were tall, grave, and beautiful, and considered among the Wise. Galadriel had golden hair, being of the house of Finarfin. Celeborn had silver hair, being of the house of Thingol. Gold and silver...wait. Any relation to the Two Trees of Valinor?

One of the things I had overlooked when I first read the chapter but eventually stood out when I read it again was the blossoming friendship between Legolas and Gimli. It might seem pretty insignificant, but these are Elf and Dwarf we are talking about. I believe that Galadriel is somehow "to blame" for this. She showed sincere kindness and concern for the Dwarf, which made the Dwarf love her (for which I wouldn't blame him). Legolas seemed to have followed her example, and started treating him a little more decently, much to the Fellowship's wonder.

Okay, I'm off to reading the thread.