The Quenta Silmarillion Eucatastrophe-less

[The Saucepan Man]

My problem was not so much with the idea of multiple eucatastrophes as it was with a eucatastrophe happening the same way twice. I lay particular stress on Tolkien’s statement that it “can never be counted on to recur.” However, I do feel that it is a fundamental principle that they never happen the same way twice and they must be unexpected.

Does that mean that one can only experience eucatastrophe once per occurence?

[Kuruharan]

The character or the reader?

If you mean the reader, I suppose you could "feel it" more than once when re-reading the story.

If you mean the character then they could only experience the particular eucatastrophe once since they can't go back and relive parts of their life (unless they are on Star Trek).

However, just to make sure there is no misunderstanding, I don't mean to say that a particular character is limited to one eucatastrophe per story (although a character participating in eucatastrophic experiences left and right would kind of diminish the rarity of the event). I just mean that it can't be expected and can't happen the same way twice.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I suppose you could "feel it" more than once when re-reading the story ... I just mean that it can't be expected and can't happen the same way twice.

But once the reader has experienced it, and is therefore expecting it, isn't it diminished the second and third etc time round?

[Imladris]

Just a quick note -- one of the definitions of myth is that it never gets stale. You come back to it again and again and again.

[mark12_30]

...But let's double check just to make sure, Kuruharan .....

He is fighting against the odds in some respects, but Gollum does not pop out of a crevice and push the dragon off a cliff and then fall down with it.

And if, each time, a Gollum popped out of a crevice and somehow vanquished Grendel, Grendel's mom, and the dragon-- then it would be repetitive, going against Tolkien's "Never to be counted on to recur." Am I getting close...?

However (if I understand you) it is okay, when we reread LotR, to be amazed again and again that sparing Gollum allowed him to bite Frodo's finger off and thus save the world. If I had to choose *one* eucatastrophe, I would choose that-- (not the havens, not the Morannon--) even though that's not what "gets" me each time. But it would still be eucatastrophe if it did get me every time? Because the "never to be counted on to recur" applies to the character, not to the reader?

So--

the horns of Rohan will never interrupt the Witch-King's speech at the gate again;

Sam will never see another star above the Ephel Duath that affects him quite like that one;

Aragorn will never unexpectedly unfurl his banner from a corsair ship again;

the Morannon will never fall again;

A wounded ringbearer-hobbit sailing west cannot be counted on to happen again;

...but we, in rereading these things, may still catch a glimpse of

evangelium giving a fleeting glimpse of Joy, Joy beyond the walls of the world, poignant as grief

...?