The Quenta Silmarillion Eucatastrophe-less

[Imladris]

Regarding Eucatastrophe:

I will be using On Fairy Stories definition because I think that that is the way Tolkien meant it to be used -- that is how he defines myth, or as he calls it, Fairy Stories.

But the "consolation" of fairy-tales has another aspect than the imaginative satisfaction of ancient desires. Far more important is the Consolation of the Happy Ending. Almost I would venture to assert that all complete fairy-stories must have it. At least I would say that Tragedy is the true form of Drama, its highest function; but the opposite is true of Fairy-story. Since we do not appear to possess a word that expresses this opposite -- I will call it Eucatastrophe. The eucatastrophic tale is the true form of fairy-tale, and its highest function.

The consolation of fairy-stories, the joy of the happy ending: or more correctly of the good catastrophe, the sudden joyous "turn" (for there is no true end to any fairy-tale)...it denies (in the face of much evidence, if you will) universal final defeat and in so far is evengelium, giving a fleeting glimpse of Joy, Joy beyond the walls of the world, poignant as grief.

So ecuastrophe is a glimpse of Joy. What is Joy?

The peculiar quality of the "joy" in successful Fantasy can thus be explained as a sudden glimpse of the underlying reality or truth. It is not only a "consolation" for the sorrow of this world...but in the "eucatastrophe" we see in a brief vision that the answer may be greater -- it may be a far-off gleam or echo of evangelium in the real world.

So, a eucastrophe contains Joy -- the Joy fo the Christian story, the Christian myth become fact.

...such joy as the very taste of primary truth...It looks forward (or backward the direction is unimportant) to the Great Eucatastrophe. The Christian joy, the Gloria, of of the same kind; but it is pre-eminantly (infinitely, if our capacity were not finite) high and joyours. But this story is supreme, and it is true...it has followed them, especially the "happy ending."...

I believe that it is very clear that Eucatastrophe happens at the end of a story. First, it is defined as the happy ending. Second, it is Eucatastrophe not Eucatastrophes. Thus I must eat my words about sub-Eucatastrophes.

Style has nothing to do with Eucatastrophe -- in fact a badly done story with a Eucatastrophe is often the redeeming grace of such a story.

Joy, I believe, is relative. If you see the fleeting glimpse of Joy -- the reflection of the Christian myth become fact, then there is eucatastrophe. I see the Christian Story in the Silmarillion -- in fact I see it all too clearly -- not even as a mere reflection. Do I see joy in the Christian story/Silmarillion? No, I do not. Thus...do I have Eucatastrophe?

[Kuruharan]

Style has nothing to do with Eucatastrophe -- in fact a badly done story with a Eucatastrophe is often the redeeming grace of such a story.

So if style has nothing to do with eucatastrophes then it is something built into the story and is not tied to the reaction of the reader.

[Bêthberry]

Catching up here, but perhaps the catching up has its value, in putting several posts into perspective.

It is well to remember that the text of The Silm which we have is not like other literary texts. It does not come down to us with the impremature of the man who conceived it. It was compiled and published postumously. And in so being, parts of it arise from the hand of its editor. It is not a uniformly coherent text the same way that many modern stories are. But then neither are our forms of ancient myths.

Another point it is well to ponder is that the events of The Silm were constantly being reconsidered by that primary author. ChristopherTolkien tells us (in the Foreward to my edition) that "considered simply as a large narrative structure, [The Silm] underwent relatively little radical change; it became a fixed tradition, and background to later writings." Then, then, he goes on to describe it what changes and variants it did undergo. HoMe and UT shows us just how various and variable were those changes.

Christopher's most important comment about those changes refers to how Tolkien's own persective on the narrative changed.

In his later writings mythology and poetry sank down behind his theological and philosophical preoccupations: from which arose incompatibilities of tone.

I wonder if there is more than just 'incompatibility of tone" however. I wonder if Christopher does not put a gloss on the changes and so distract us from some of the possibilities here.

This, at least, is my way of understanding The Silm. It is a book which reflects multiple intentions and perspectives, begun with the delight in philology and mythology. And later emended to reflect Tolkien's theological interest, "consciously so in the revision." (I'm relying on memory here when quoting it.)

So we have an author who believed that his story reflected something at first unconsciously which he then worked to make more consistent. This is Tolkien's later explanation of his intention. But, for me, for the book we now have, that reading back into the story as well as his memory obscures some of the very intriguing points of the book. Please note I am not saying Tolkien was wrong. What I am saying is that we can read The Silm for its earlier, incoherent "intention". And by intention I mean that we can see the seams of the story as it first began rather than, always, as theology it became. This is not to denigrate Tolkien's personal beliefs or to deny the philosophical aspects.

We have two versions of the creation in Ainulindale and Valaquenta--in itself a reflection of the two versions of creation in Genesis. But to me, particulalry in Valaquenta I have always imagined the Valar similar to the stories of the ancient Greek and Roman gods and goddesses which I read as a child, particularly in the way they are ascribed different aspects. And then in their bickering and rivalries and sometimes unsympathetic responses to the elves. The ancient divinities I have seen as amoral, selfish, petty and petulant. Then add to that other mythologies and legends. Thus, in The Silm I see a palimpsest (a piece of paper on which the original writing was partially or incompletely erased and then overwritten by other writing). It shimmers to me with these possibilities, that the less philosophical or less theological still can be glimpsed. This is, to me, what accounts for the kind of frustration which Imladris has identified here. (And I apologise in advance if this misrepresents her perspective.) And also accounts for how the book can be read in so many different ways, as Helen suggested here when she said she first read it as encyclopedic but then had a different experience on rereading. Or Son of Numemor's experience.

It will be obvious that I bring to my reading of The Silm everything that I have read before reading it--as we all do. And that everything I have read is itself subtly changed by reading Tolkien's work. This is why, for me, the question of whether the eucatastrophe 'exists' in the text or in the reader is a fruitless dichotomy. It exists where the reader brings his or her mind to bear on the story, in that eighteen inches or so between the book and our eyes. And then in our memories.

[Imladris]

This is, to me, what accounts for the kind of frustration which Imladris has identified here.

*nods vigorously*

This is why, for me, the question of whether the eucatastrophe 'exists' in the text or in the reader is a fruitless dichotomy. It exists where the reader brings his or her mind to bear on the story, in that eighteen inches or so between the book and our eyes. And then in our memories.

I have never thought of it that way...

Thank you, Bb, for posting that post. I had never considered that the Sil had morphed from mythology to theology...

[Aiwendil]

Bethberry wrote:

This is, to me, what accounts for the kind of frustration which Imladris has identified here.

This is interesting. I had always considered the compromise between mythology and theology to be one of the strong points of the Silmarillion, that which elevates it above both the purely mythological (i.e. ancient) and the purely theological (i.e., in this case, Christian). I suppose one person's profound satisfaction is another's insatiable frustration.

This is why, for me, the question of whether the eucatastrophe 'exists' in the text or in the reader is a fruitless dichotomy. It exists where the reader brings his or her mind to bear on the story

Which is to say (and please forgive my pedantry) that it is subjective and dependent on the reader (for in either case it's dependent on the text). Certainly there is some event that occurs in a reader's mind on reading the relevant text. We may as well call this "eucatastrophe". But that definition does not answer the question: is there an object in the text itself that we could define as the "eucatastrophe inducer" for lack of a better term (i.e. if we reserve "eucatastrophe" itself for the event between the book and the reader)?

[Imladris]

is there an object in the text itself that we could define as the "eucatastrophe inducer" for lack of a better term (i.e. if we reserve "eucatastrophe" itself for the event between the book and the reader)?

Yes, the glimpse of joy, the glimpse Evangelium. In other words, the ultimate Myth -- the Christian story. That's how Tolkien defines it I believe.

This is interesting. I had always considered the compromise between mythology and theology to be one of the strong points of the Silmarillion, that which elevates it above both the purely mythological (i.e. ancient) and the purely theological (i.e., in this case, Christian). I suppose one person's profound satisfaction is another's insatiable frustration.

I find no joy in the Christian/Silmarillion story, thus this glimpse of "joy" is not an euctastrophe for me I suppose. I love the way that Tolkien weaved mythology and theology together. The fact that he did that, though, doesn not make the ending of this story a eucatastrophy, but a doom with no hope.

Of course, as I believe that Bethberry touched on, we may not know Tolkien's true feelings, as the book was not finished before his death.

[ivo]

I'm new here: I came upon the word eucatastrophe and had to react on one of the comments.

I read somewhere that the eucatastrophe in LOTR was the crumbling of the Black Gate.

Of course the eucatastrophe is the destruction of the ring, which was against all odds.
By doing it, you change the world you wanted to save. That is the logic of terror, either way you lose. By fulfilling your task, you undo the reason for your task (because the One is bond to the powers of the Three).

More precise: the eucatastrophic element is the moment when Frodo finds out about the ring. Once he knows the facts, he can't deny them. That is the terrifying power of a vocation.
It's in the knowledge: things will never be the same...(sacrifice and resurrection in one, like Christ)

[Encaitare]

Good points, ivo, and welcome to the Downs!

Any thoughts on the topic here, eucatastrophe (or lack thereof) in the Silmarillion?