Rohirric and Elvish Verse

[Kuruharan]

In any case, it still seems a bit surprising that the Rohirrim would preserve something so similar to "minlamad thent/estent" through the intervening six thousand years.

While I grant that six thousand years is certainly a long time for humanity to preserve a form, I still find it plausible, in the context of Middle earth, that a people so deeply rooted in oral tradition would have preserved it.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil[/i

Still, a close affinity between the Rohirrim and the Elves seems strange, at least to me.

Well, there must have been some kind of 'affinity', as one of the Marshals of Rohan is called Elfhelm. This name alone would make me curious about a relationship. Of course, the Elf element in A-S names such as Alfred (Elf-wisdom) may have had something to do with Tolkien's choice of name here.

[Aiwendil]

Davem wrote:

Of course, the Elf element in A-S names such as Alfred (Elf-wisdom) may have had something to do with Tolkien's choice of name here.

Yes, but we know that the A-S "alf"/"aelf" was important to Tolkien (cf. Aelfwine), so it's likely that "Elfhelm" is significant. Perhaps you're right, then. Still, the Rohirrim have fewer obvious Elvish cultural connections than do the Numenoreans.

Another interesting aspect of the question is the matter of spoken vs. sung verse. In their essay, Wynne and Hostetter note that Tolkien wrote of the Sindarin word narn that it referred to a tale in verse meant to be spoken rather than sung; from this they conclude that "minlamad thent/estent" was spoken. Then they embark upon a thorough analysis of whether Tolkien's views on whether real Anglo-Saxon alliterative verse had been spoken or sung; they offer no firm conclusion but appear to suggest that he probably thought it was spoken. But I wish they had considered the verses of the Rohirrim in LotR, for the two major Rohirric poems are both said to be "songs". I also think they may have jumped too quickly to the conclusion that minlamad thent/estent was not sung. It seems possible to me that, while a narn was spoken, there may have been other verses in minlamad thent/estent that were indeed sung.

I make these points not with the intention of criticizing the excellent essay, but primarily because I wonder whether the similarity between the Elvish and Rohirric verse forms suggests any similarity between Elvish and Rohirric music. Also I wonder whether the use of "song" in referring to the verse of the Rohirrim casts further doubt on Tolkien's beliefs about Anglo-Saxon verse being spoken.

[davem]

Well, its certainly easier to remember a song than a poem, so, perhaps humans would set poems to music even if their orignal form was spoken. Possibly the verse form was learnt from the Sindar, & the music added by men.

Having said that, & knowing how touchy Elves could be regarding 'tradition', I see no reason that the Elves would not choose to set some of their verses to music. For instance, while I can't see the Narn being sung, I could see 'Winter comes to Nargothrond' being, & that's in the alliterative metre.