LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 10 - The Breaking of the Fellowship

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Ah yes, he does - but that's in the next chapter (next book, even)...

[davem]

Just expanding on some of my earlier points (let me know if this sounds ridiculous)

Its almost as if the conflict with Boromir was an externalisation of Frodo's inner conflict at that point, & that Boromir personified Frodo's own weakness & desire. Its significant, then, that Frodo runs away from Boromir, almost as if he's running away from that part of himself, only to have the conflict 'errupt' again a few minutes later on Amon Hen. As I said, the War of the Ring is both an inner & an outer conflict. The Voice & the Eye are external forces (Gandalf & Sauron) but they are also inner forces as well (ie Frodo has 'Gandalf' & 'Sauron' within him). Yet what's really interesting is the culmination of the experience, when Frodo realises he is 'neither the voice nor the eye'. We seem to have the same conflict repeated, first with 'Frodo' vs 'Boromir', then with the external eye & voice, finally with the internal eye & voice.

Does this make any sense? I'm still struggling to formulate the idea, but it seems significant - Frodo (the false 'persona' he has adopted), the 'external' & 'internal' voices, seem to symbolise 'GOOD' while 'Boromir' & the 'external' & 'internal' eyes seem to symbolise 'EVIL', & there is this battle, between 'equal' forces which ends in a total impasse.

But then there comes a 'breakthrough', the real Frodo emerges, 'neither the Voice nor the Eye'. Its almost as if this 'new' Frodo is born at that precise moment, out of that conflict. Its like Jung's 'Transcendent Function', a new Self emerging out of a state of inner conflict.

Or am I just talking rubbish?

[Boromir88]

Brace yourselves, I even found more parallels between Amon Sul and Amon Hen. Both times, Aragorn led the Company (of hobbits, then the Fellowship) to these places, and both times Gandalf was absent from the Company. Both times Gandalf is "alive," and near the Company, he's just absent from it. And Both times these two "Amon's" are the near failure of the quest.

First time, Frodo is stabbed and if it wasn't for Aragorn very well could have been the end of the quest. Amon Hen, Boromir causes the "near failure" of the quest, but he also helps the quest to succeed (Good job Boro).

Frodo's wondering around alone, with the threat of orcs about, and with that Boromir gets his chance to claim the ring as his own. But, he was the deciding force that warned Frodo he had to get out of the Company. Of course, this is debatable, if Boromir hadn't of attacked Frodo, Frodo still very well could have left the Fellowship. But, I say Boromir is the "deciding factor" for Frodo, because even AFTER Boromir's attack Frodo finds it dificult to leave the Fellowship.

But surely they will understand. Sam will.

Even after Boromir's attack Frodo's got to convince himself that everyone will understand why he's leaving, he's leaving because this burden is tearing the Fellowship apart. So in that regard Boromir helps the quest to succeed, I don't know if Frodo would have left the Fellowship if Boromir hadn't of gone mad, but that is debatable.

Another way I think Boromir helps the quest succeed (in this chapter) is the fact of getting Frodo out of there before the Orc attack. Again, Frodo is alone wondering around, with the threat of orcs about (As Aragorn states and Boromir reinforces), who knows if Boromir hadn't of shone up, we have Frodo in this wood alone, with no urge to "get out of the Fellowship," and to ultimately escape the Orc attack. Boromir gets Frodo to flee from the area, and ultimately from the Fellowship, just before the Orcs show up (or before they make their strike). And of course again, that idea is also debatable. Frodo still could have gotten away from the Orcs if Boromir wasn't around to give Frodo that "will" that he must leave the company.

Lastly, Davem, I understand your internal and external voices, it's sort of that "battle of good vs. evil" we all have in our hearts at times. Whether to do the "right" thing or the "wrong" thing. However, could you please elaborate more on how you feel Boromir as a personified Frodo? Yes, Boromir did try and sieze the Ring, but I think Boromir was just acting as a normal man would, or as most men would. If you would please, could you sort of explain more how Boromir is a personified Frodo, because right now at this stage, I don't see as if Frodo wants to sieze the Ring for himself, or want to cast down Sauron with it and have armies flock to his banner. I think that's a little too deep reading, but maybe if you elaborate more I will begin to understand .

[HerenIstarion]

Unfortunate lack of time being an obstacle to giving comments proper, I'm nevertheless willing to let you take a glance at the following thread by piosenniel, where she developes interesting idea as of the fellowship being a parallel, or model to 'original' fellowship - that of the Valar, including Melkor, the latter playing 'Boromir's part' in 'original' break up, with a significant difference, o'course - he repented, Melkor did not. Interesting speculation, I'd say, so see more at the thread itself: The Original Breaking of the Fellowship

cheers

[davem]

Originally Posted by B88

Lastly, Davem, I understand your internal and external voices, it's sort of that "battle of good vs. evil" we all have in our hearts at times. Whether to do the "right" thing or the "wrong" thing. However, could you please elaborate more on how you feel Boromir as a personified Frodo? Yes, Boromir did try and sieze the Ring, but I think Boromir was just acting as a normal man would, or as most men would. If you would please, could you sort of explain more how Boromir is a personified Frodo, because right now at this stage, I don't see as if Frodo wants to sieze the Ring for himself, or want to cast down Sauron with it and have armies flock to his banner. I think that's a little too deep reading, but maybe if you elaborate more I will begin to understand

Ok, maybe I was pushing it a bit too far. My point though was just that at that point for Frodo Boromir seems to fulfil the role of all the fears & desires that he is attempting to fight against. He takes on the role of Frodo's 'Shadow', the aspect(s) of himself that he has supressed, refused to acknowledge, & is attempting to overcome.

In other words, Boromir is both himself, son of the Steward of Gondor, a man fighting his own inner battle with the Ring, and for Frodo, a symbol of his own dark side. What comes through for me in this chapter is that the battle is being fought by so many of the characters on an outer & an inner field. As so many critics say, LotR is a battle between Good & Evil, between absolute BLACK & absolute WHITE with no 'grey areas', but its fought between the Good & the Evil, the Black & White within the individual as much as by Good individuals & Bad individuals.

So, for Frodo its as if that 'Evil/Black' side of himself has taken on a physical form & his internal 'battle' has become an external one.

Not so much that Boromir is Frodo, but that he symbolises that aspect of Frodo which up to that point he has tried to keep repressed. Frodo may not have realised he has the kind of desires you're attributing to Boromir, but I can't help suspecting they are already there, deep down.