Tolkien spiritualty... A hint of Buddhism?

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Ka

This is proably the most noticed element of Buddhism and older Teutonic (European) spirituality

This is perhaps the relevant part as regards the legendarium. But it doesn't simply apply to Teutonic spirituality. The Celts certainly believed in the transmigration of souls - Caesar mentions it as a central aspect of Druidic teaching.

Where this concept does come in to an understanding of Tolkien is that his motivation (at least in the begining) was mot to create a brand new myth cycle, but to re-create what had originally existed. So, if the North-Western peoples (Celts, Teutons, Finns) had this belief, it must have had some origin. Tolkien was attempting to discover what those peoples had believed, why they believed it, & offer an account of it.

Now, obviously, he didn't leave it at that stage, & went on to develop the idea of Elvish reincarnation in various later works (tying himself in knots to a great extent) from a 'theological' perspective.

What we must keep in mind though, is that original intention - to provide an re creation of what had been. Where did the belief in reincarnation/transmigration of souls come from - why did our ancestors believe that happened? The Bible told Tolkien that humans do not reincarnate, but the idea of reincarnation was accepted by our ancestors.

There is a further issue - Tolkien was wishing to explore the question of mortality vs immortality, the ultimate question of why we die & how that affects our relationship to the world. He chose to do that by having two major races, one mortal, one immortal, one destined to inevitably pass from the world, one destined never to do so. Now, logically, no incarnate being can be physically indestructible - any physical object can be destroyed by a powerful enough force. But if the body of an 'immortal' being could be destroyed then some mechanism had to be found to keep that being in the world - otherwise it would not serve the purpose Tolkien needed it to serve - to be bound within the circles of the world for all eternity. Reincarnation in some form was probably the best he could come up with. It wouldn't be enough for them to simply hang around as ghosts (though his eventual idea of their fea burning away their hroa does seem to offer that destiny). They would have to be fully, physically, present within the world because this would emphasise their 'boundenedness' to the world, that they cannot leave it. Also, their nature expresses itself in art, in creativity, so that would require physicality.

And finally, we could bring in the Christian idea of incarnation - created beings are physically incarnate incarnate in a physical world. Body & soul are bound - for men temporarily, for Elves permanently - & this is the primary difference (for Tolkien's philosophical needs) between them.

I think Buddhism is the wrong way to go in this, as reincarnation is merely one aspect of that system, & is believed in for different reasons.

[mark12_30]

(A minor aside: Memory may be lacking but I thought elves were supposed to last as long as Middle-Earth, as Arda, and then after that nobody knew? Or does somebody eventually know within the legendarium?)

[HerenIstarion]

Or does somebody eventually know within the legendarium?)

Not certain knowledge, but supposition (backed up by 'joy of the heart' on Finrod's part, which is considered a sign of recognition of truth) by Finrod (in converse with Andreth) that in Arda Remade elves would be given the role of annalist-poets - to remember things that were before

That bodies should be remade is my own supposition, not groundless I believe, as it is stated that all matter is to be destroyed and than remade and, as bodies are made out of matter, and as hroar are stated to be essential for fëar and both's well-being, it is logical to suppose that to be probable too.

I discuss the passage in the Evil Things post #90 The citation as follows:

'But this is strange to me, and even as did your heart when I spoke of your unrest, so now mine leaps up as at the hearing of good news.

'This then, I propound, was the errand of Men, not the followers, but the heirs and fulfillers of all: to heal the Marring of Arda, already foreshadowed before their devising; and to do more, as agents of the magnificence of Eru: to enlarge the Music and surpass the Vision of the World!

'For that Arda Healed shall not be Arda Unmarred, but a third thing and a greater, and yet the same. I have conversed with the Valar who were present at the making of the Music ere the being of the World began. And now I wonder: Did they hear the end of the Music? Was there not something in or beyond the final chords of Eru which, being overwhelmed thereby, they did got perceive?
'Or again, since Eru is for ever free, maybe he made no Music and showed no Vision beyond a certain point. Beyond that point we cannot see or know, until by our own roads we come there, Valar or Eldar or Men.

'As may a master in the telling of tales keep hidden the greatest moment until it comes in due course. It may be guessed at indeed, in some measure, by those of us who have listened with full heart and mind; but so the teller would wish. In no wise is the surprise and wonder of his art thus diminished, for thus we share, as it were, in his authorship. But not so, if all were told us in a preface before we entered in!'

'What then would you say is the supreme moment that Eru has reserved?' Andreth asked.

'Ah, wise lady!' said Finrod. 'I am an Elda, and again I was thinking of my own people. But nay, of all the Children of Eru. I was thinking that by the Second Children we might have been delivered from death. For ever as we spoke of death being a division of the united, I thought in my heart of a death that is not so: but the ending together of both. For that is what lies before us, so far as our reason could see: the completion of Arda and its end, and therefore also of us children of Arda; the end when all the long lives of the Elves shall be wholly in the past.

'And then suddenly I beheld as a vision Arda Remade; and there the Eldar completed but not ended could abide in the present for ever, and there walk, maybe, with the Children of Men, their deliverers, and sing to them such songs as, even in the Bliss beyond bliss, should make the green valleys ring and the everlasting mountain-tops to throb like harps.'

[Suldaledhel]

As a Buddhist, I feel more than qualified to tackle this topic.

First, it my obligation to say that any connection between the metaphysical life cycle of the Elves and Buddhist principles is purely coincidental, as there are too many differences for it to be relevant. For instance, Elves who did some not too nice things, such as Feanor, have to spend a deal of time waiting around in the Halls of Mandos to think about what they've done and so on before ever being considered for their "new" body. There is no such thing in Buddhism - one dies and gets reborn, end of story. Past crimes are paid for in the current life... many people know this as Karma. Now, the astute may point out the similarities between the Elves' longing to stay in middle-earth and the concept of Dharma, but such things are purely coincidental. To my knowledge, Tolkien did not nearly have enough knowledge of Buddhist theorem to draw such a subtle metaphor.

For those who don't know what I'm talking about, I'll elaborate (though in a simplistic manner, as I don't want to get too involved with these concepts). Dharma is the struggle that people face from living their lives with too many cravings, more or less, hence anyone wishing to become Buddha must relinquish many of these desires and strive for the Middle Path. Now, one could say that the Elves undergo a form of dharma by not reliquishing their desire to stay in Middle-earth and keep things the way they are, and must ultimately relinquish this desire and pass onto the West to achieve some form of enlightenment, but I personally feel this is a bit too sophisticated for Tolkien's intent, and too loosely based to draw a real comparison. After all, one could also argue that the elves are leaving for Valinor just because things will not change there, and that their desires will be fulfilled - not that they will not have any more desires.

Furthermore, as has already been pointed out, the Elves simply reinhabit the bodies they previously possessed. As devem eloquently pointed out, this is merely a facet of Christian incarnation - not Buddhist reincarnation. Also, the relationship between the Elves and the Ainur obliterates any hint of Buddhism. Even in Mahayana Buddhism, gods are largely seen as spirits who have already attained enlightenment, but forsake that state of pure existence to aid their brethren on earth who have no yet experienced Buddhahood. Now, I personally think the Valar are a little less than enlightened with their dealings with the Elves.

Regardless, while it is interesting to note some very elementary comparisons between the Elves and Buddhism, it is far too undeveloped to think that there is anything there. Especially when there are far more examples of these things in the mythologies that Tolkien based the Elves off of. I agree with davem - these are interesting things you are pointing out, but Buddhism is not the path to explore them with.

[Ainaserkewen]

Ahh, the voice of the knowing. Thank you Suldaledhel.

Though I agree that Buddhism might be too different to be wholly comparable to the Elves death cycles, I have a different side thought. When I think of the story of the elves, it seems very Japanese to me. And when I say Japanese it means that I've made my way through a lot of Japanese manga (comics) and many stories. All these fantasy stories are directly influenced by the Buddhist natures in Japanese culture. The story of the elves, though much more developed than most manga, is roughly similar. What I mean to say is that though I don't know the intricasies of the Buddhist religion, I can see where the Ka is coming from. The idea of reincarnation, though it is a Christian idea, when you think of it physically, it feels very foreign and exotic, and I'm a devote Roman Catholic. So, yes, it is probably coincidence that the elves resemble Buddhism, but it is still an interesting approach to the idea.

[mark12_30]

Elvish reincarnation is more similar to Roman Catholic & Christian resurrection than you might at first suppose. You might look into the concept of resurrection a bit more, and then Tolkien's development of it might make sense.

[THE Ka]

Wow... All I can really say is , that I am amazed... I never expected so many would turn out for this! Be their opinions more of a positive or negative form. I really do not care in what you might call "defending" my post, instead I see this as more than a wonderful way to learn, as many others here may agree. I would first like to thank those who have more knowledge than I in this area, thank you for your insight. I am really thankful for you. Another act of thanks I would like to give to those who have found resources or direct quotes to better improve this thread. Thank you, for your hard work also. And, I would also like to thank all and everyone who has taken the time to check this thread out, and give your opinions and or views.

As many have asked, or posted they do not know my knowledge in Buddhism or they were wondering. Well, i never intended to "show off" in this thread, actually i was hopeing to recieve more experienced knowledge in this area. I do have some knowledge but, not extencively. Once again, I thank those who do have knowledge in this area and were nice enough to share. I myself am not Buddhist, I am Eclectic Wiccan. But, I do have relatives who are Buddhist, this religion have always fasinated me on any of its levels. Though I have not had teachings from them specifically, they have shaped my life as a whole.

I hope this has helped or allowed everyone willing to discuss on this topic, some form of learning or expansion or allowed them to see a new view and or further develop an older one.

Again, I would like to thank all who have posted. You really have made me happy and I feel that whatever becomes of this thread is still handeled with as much compassion, attension and knowledge as you all have shown.

Thank you

Respectfully,

The Ka

P.S. Remember, Carpe Diem...