**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**

[Findegil]

Aha Aiwendil, I think I begin to undestand your point of view now a bit better.

However, that line of reasoning isn't entirely clear-cut since it depends on the truth of the proposition that ToY contradicts Q30, which is, I suppose, an unclear point.

These proposition seems wrong to me, at least concerning the hunt. If we look at the diferent sources:

TN -> the hunt is mentioned, treacherous Elves are included
S -> the hunt is mentioned, treacherous Elves are included
Q30-> the hunt is mentioned, treacherous Elves are included

AB1 -> the hunt is NOT mentioned, treacherous Elves are included
AB2 -> the hunt is NOT mentioned, treacherous Elves are included
TY -> the hunt is NOT mentioned, treacherous Elves are EXEcluded

Thus the hunt was claerly part of the story when Ab1 and Ab2 where written. These Annals were much fuller than then TY (they were been accompanied by Tale of the Year versions, which we don't have). It seems wrong to me, to execlud the hunt, only because it isn't metioned in TY which Tolkien composed clearly with AB2 or the accompanying Tale of the Year version in front of him.
I see now that this is clearly otherwise for the treacherous Elves. They were included in AB2 and execluded from TY. Thus it seems that Tolkien rejected them. But Maedhros did give us the way to use the hunt without them:

As the characters have evolved as time passed, we know now that the Dwarves in Nogrod had a long tradition with the Elves of Menegroth. Is it not possible that those dwarves could have know about the traditions of the Hunt (where it took place and when) because of their interaction with them.

And so I agree (at last) to scip them from our version.

I suppose the main point is that, to me anyway, it feels canonically safer not to mention the hunt or the treacherous Elves. Whether that safety is worth dropping those elements is unclear to me.

It is clearly the case that the less details we provide, the more canonical-safty we get. But how riscy is it to include the hunt?
In view of the discussion, I think we are all now no longer absolutly sure about this issue. Thus I think we should find at first some common ground:
- Do we all agree that Thingol had not a great host of Sindarin Elves withhim when he was killed?
- If so, can we incooperat that into our version even if the hunt is not used?

Respectfully
Findegil