LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 02 - The Riders of Rohan

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

davem, have you ever considered joining the RPG forums?

Don't start confusing me - it took me months to get my head round posting on ordinary threads. All that interacting with others & working out who does what & when & how would make my head spin. I am a bear of very little brain

[Lalwendë]

There is another instance of the ‘red dawn’ being a portent of doom:

Arise, arise, Riders of Theoden!
Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter!
spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered,
a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!
Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!

The red sky in the morning folklore does have some scientific basis in meteorology, I’m happy to say, though I would have to look this up to say exactly why this phenomenon happens - it's something to do with particles.

On the nature of Elven sleep, I’m sure that this is strongly linked to the nature of Elven time. If an immortal has a wholly different perception of the passing of time, surely they should have a different need for sleep? I would like to think that they need to sleep less often than mortals, yet in proportion to their infinite lives, it would be equivalent to the sleep that mortals take.

To work out why Legolas can see so far will need some very ‘out there’ physics to begin to explain, but I shall attempt it, at the risk of the men in white coats coming out again, and possibly they will be having to round up anyone who attempts to read this. This goes back to the concept of Light, though in a purely (or is it?) scientific sense.

Light travels one foot in one billionth of a second, and the Light from the Sun takes 8 minutes to reach us. If the Sun exploded (presuming its constituent parts would travel at no faster a velocity than the speed of light), then we would not know this for 8 minutes; we would experience the past in the present. So in effect, all the Light we receive is the past, it is something which has already happened; our Light (and our present) is the Sun‘s history. As for Time, it exists at several levels, including psychological time, and our psychological time by necessity moves forwards. Here is what Hawking says of this:

Suppose, however, that God decided that the universe should finish up in a state of high order but that it didn’t matter what state it started in. At early times the universe would probably be in a disordered state. This would mean that disorder would decrease with time. You would see broken cups gathering themselves together and jumping back onto the table. However, any human beings who were observing the cups would be living in a universe in which disorder decreased with time. I shall argue that such beings would have a psychological arrow of time that was backward. That is, they would remember events in the future, and not remember events in their past. When the cup was broken, they would remember it being on the table, but when it was on the table, they would not remember it being on the floor.

If you consider an immortal, maybe their time moves forward at a different velocity, hence their light, and thus what they can see, and how far they can see, also is different.

Is the 'other' world still the original flat earth - which would perhaps explain why they can still find the Straight Road into the West? Do Elves like Legolas walk on both a straight & a 'curved' world? Maybe Legolas can see the Rohirrim at such a great distance & calculate their number instantly because the physics of the Other World are different to the physics of this world?

Now this is important. There is a possibility that the universe is round, but there is also the possibility that it is flat, that it even has walls; it is most likely fairly flat, with a slight shape. I won’t go too far into this as I think I’ve meddled with cosmology enough for one post, but in terms of Tolkien’s universe, it could indeed be that for Elves, with their different perceptions of Time, and hence Light, exist in a perfectly flat universe. I have thought this is a possibility for a long time, and often think of the search for the straight road as akin to the search for the secret of time itself.

[davem]

So, Arda at the end of time, would have reached a state of 'perfection'. It would become what Eru had concieved it to be in the beginning - yet it would 'only' then match what it had 'been' in His mind. In that case could we really speak of that being the 'end', as it would actually be (physically)what it had been originally? This is like the ouroboros, the serpent with its tail in its mouth - 'In my end is my beginning'.

One of the novels that most affected Tolkien was Eddison's The Worm Ouroborus, which basically ends at its beginning, the world of the novel having been turned back on itself, so the whole story would repeat throughout eternity, with the same characters foing the same things. Or we have Nietszche's Eternal return....

The Elves seek not to go into the West, but to return into the West - they seem to think in terms not of going forward but of going back, as though their foray into the 'outer' world has been a 'circular' movement. Yet they take the 'straight' road to get back to where they started. They are constantly driven to 'return' is the West for them as much a symbol of the 'beginning' to which they are drawn as it is 'Home'?

In Elvish sentiment the future was not one of hope or desire, but a decay & retrogression from former bliss & power. Though inevitably it lay ahead, as of one on a journey, 'looking forward' did not imply anticipation of delight. 'I look forward to seeing you again' did not mean or imply 'I wish to see you again' did not mean or imply 'I wish to see you again, & since that is arranged/and or very likely, I am pleased'. It meant simply 'I expect to see you again with the certainty of foresight (in some circumstances) or regard that as very probable - it might be with fear or dilsike, foreboding.' Their position, as of latter day sentiment, was [b] one of exiles driven foreward (against their will) who were in mind or actual posture ever looking backward (Tolkien in an unpublished note, quoted in Flieger 'a Question of Time'.

So they Elves are constantly driven not to go on into the West, but to go back to where they had been.

They are artists, seeking perfection in their creations - yet that perfection they desire had only existed at one point - in the Mind of Eru before the Music.

Originally Posted by Lalwende

]So in effect, all the Light we receive is the past, it is something which has already happened; our Light (and our present) is the Sun‘s history. As for Time, it exists at several levels, including psychological time, and our psychological time by necessity moves forwards.

So Legolas experiences time differently, & thus inevitably percieves light differently?

But what does this make Elves - what does it say about their nature? Without rehashing the old 'Ch-ch-ch-ch-changes' arguments, does this mena that the Elves have such 'control' over their perception of time that they can choose not to count it - to actually exist psychologically outside time - so that the Rings do to the physical environment what the Elves (can) do to their mental environment & halt it, or cause it to run a different speeds - if for them memory is like to the waking world is that because they can mentally move backwards in time & be in that space-time again, reliving it? And so, their vision of a perfect 'state' would not be one of a perfect future time but a perfect past - the one that exists eternally in the Mind of Eru?

Yet, having said that, what would 'past' or 'future' mean to them, if they had that kind of power over it (or, which is the same thing, it had so little power over them.)

[Lalwendë]

The Elves seek not to go into the West, but to return into the West - they seem to think in terms not of going forward but of going back, as though their foray into the 'outer' world has been a 'circular' movement. Yet they take the 'straight' road to get back to where they started. They are constantly driven to 'return' is the West for them as much a symbol of the 'beginning' to which they are drawn as it is 'Home'?

If indeed time in Arda was circular in some way, then I don't see any reason why Elves, being immortal, would not experience Time in that way. Perhaps this explains the do not/need not argument? (sorry ) Using my own words:

if the Elves do not count the running years, not for themselves, this is emphatic. They simply do not count those years in their own reckoning. But if the Elves need not count the running years, not for themselves, then it's something that by dint of being immortal, it's not necessary for them to do.

If they need not count the years, if they know to where they are going and from whence they came, what would be the purpose in counting years at all? Perhaps this difference between Men and Elves explains something of the nature of mortality - that mortals can never know this.

Still, this theory would only 'fit' for the Eldar.

I am not so sure that Elven time can be speeded up or slowed down, I think that they perceive time at an entirely different pace to mortals, one outside our easy comprehension. They see the world as Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by as mortal creatures are born, live and die in the mere blink of an eye to them; they see the world as Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves as the great expanse of eternity is infinite.

Yet beneath the Sun all things must wear to an end at last

Does this refer to the eventual contraction and inevitable expansion or rebuilding of the universe? Do the Elves experience every universe and hence know what fate will bring? Or will some other creation experience 'the next' universe?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lalwende

I am not so sure that Elven time can be speeded up or slowed down, I think that they perceive time at an entirely different pace to mortals, one outside our easy comprehension. They see the world as Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by as mortal creatures are born, live and die in the mere blink of an eye to them; they see the world as Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves as the great expanse of eternity is infinite.

Yet the purpose of the Elven Rings was to slow the physical effects of time - obviously they couldn't completely halt it, yet they could apparently manipulate it, & wouldn't that desire have arisen because they had the concept of it, & possibly that was due to some innate ability to manipulate their experience of it. Aren't they really trying to make the external world reflect their mental world, match the 'inner' & the 'outer'?

Does this refer to the eventual contraction and inevitable expansion or rebuilding of the universe? Do the Elves experience every universe and hence know what fate will bring? Or will some other creation experience 'the next' universe?

Only if there is a Universe subsequent to this one - why not simply an endless loop, an eternal return?

[Lalwendë]

Only if there is a Universe subsequent to this one - why not simply an endless loop, an eternal return?

It would happen in this way, the beginning and end of the universe; it would endlessly rebuild, but the crucial point is if it would be the same each time? Imagine an elastic band. You draw it out, flick it across the room, and it has returned to it's original, shape, but not entirely. In the very act of strecthing it, you will have altered some aspects of its fundamental structure, even if its compnenet parts are the same. And in addition, in doing this, you have released energy, which will have gone somewhere else (as energy cannot be destroyed, only changed) - so where would the energy go from the continual expansion and contraction of the universe? And the consequences which have to combine in order to produce a certain type of life, they are far too infinite to comprehend.

Back to Tolkien.

Yet the purpose of the Elven Rings was to slow the physical effects of time - obviously they couldn't completely halt it, yet they could apparently manipulate it, & wouldn't that desire have arisen because they had the concept of it, & possibly that was due to some innate ability to manipulate their experience of it. Aren't they really trying to make the external world reflect their mental world, match the 'inner' & the 'outer'?

This is true - so perhaps the Elven rings contain some kind of secret of Time or indeed Light? If so, then what was the dark nature of the One Ring? If Sauron was one of the Maiar, he may have known some of these secrets, as may have the Istari, thus explaining why Saruman wanted the One Ring so much.

Another train of thought - perhaps the reason that the rings of power turned mortals into wraiths was that they contained some power of Time or Light which disspipated the very substance of mortals? Would they turn mortals into Dark Matter? I am speculating now, as Tolkien would surely not have known of Dark Matter?

[davem]

Too rushed......

Originally Posted by Lalwende

it would endlessly rebuild, but the crucial point is if it would be the same each time?

If Eru willed it. Scientific 'laws' are based on a 'closed' universe.

I am speculating now, as Tolkien would surely not have known of Dark Matter?

Many things are 'known' subconsciously before scientists stick a label on them.