The Gift of Speech

[The Saucepan Man]

Welcome to the Downs, Turin and A_Brandybuck I hope that you enjoy yourselves here.

My goodness, there seems to me to be a good deal of scepticism concerning the talkative nature of Turin's sword. Now, I am a very sceptical person when it comes to unexplained phenomena in real life, but (absent the ludicrous) I am quite happy to suspend that scepticism when I read a fantasy novel which contains elements of faerie, mythology and legend.

Can anyone offer a plausible explanation as to why Gurthang could not, or should not, have talked?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I understand your point Saucepan (at least I hope I do) but for me this is not really a case of Gurthang being able to talk. I understand that odd things happen in the course of the stories. I merely believe that Gurthang did not talk, and that the scenario was a nigh-on perfect manifestation of Turin's fragile state of mind.

[mark12_30]

From The Ring Goes South:

.

.. said Gandalf. ‘... There is a wholesome air about Hollin. Much evil must befall a country before it wholly forgets the Elves, if once they dwelt there.’
‘That is true,’ said Legolas. ‘But the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk, and the trees and the grass do not now remember them: Only I hear the stones lament them: deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone. They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago.’

From Treebeard:

'But some of my trees are limb-lithe, and many can talk to me. Elves began it, of course, waking trees up and teaching them to speak and learning their tree-talk. They always wished to talk to everything, the old Elves did. '

The White Rider:

There I lay staring upward, while the stars wheeled over, and each day was as long as a life-age of the earth. Faint to my ears came the gathered rumour of all lands: the springing and the dying, the song and the weeping, and the slow everlasting groan of overburdened stone.

From The Tower of Cirith Ungol:

'‘Come on, you miserable sluggard!’ Sam cried to himself. ‘Now for it!’ He drew Sting and ran towards the open gate. But just as he was about to pass under its great arch he felt a shock: as if he had run into some web like Shelob’s, only invisible. He could see no obstacle, but something too strong for his will to overcome barred the way. He looked about, and then within the shadow of the gate he saw the Two Watchers.
They were like great figures seated upon thrones. Each had three joined bodies, and three heads facing outward, and inward, and across the gateway. The heads had vulture-faces, and on their great knees were laid clawlike hands. They seemed to be carved out of huge blocks of stone, immovable, and yet they were aware: some dreadful spirit of evil vigilance abode in them. They knew an enemy. Visible or invisible none could pass unheeded. They would forbid his entry, or his escape.
Hardening his will Sam thrust forward once again, and halted with a jerk, staggering as if from a blow upon his breast and head. Then greatly daring, because he could think of nothing else to do, answering a sudden thought that came to him, he drew slowly out the phial of Galadriel and held it up. Its white light quickened swiftly, and the shadows under the dark arch fled. The monstrous Watchers sat there cold and still, revealed in all their hideous shape. For a moment Sam caught a glitter in the black stones of their eyes, the very malice of which made him quail; but slowly he felt their will waver and crumble into fear.
He sprang past them; but even as he did so, thrusting the phial back into his bosom, he was aware, as plainly as if a bar of steel had snapped to behind him, that their vigilance was renewed. And from those evil heads there came a high shrill cry that echoed in the towering walls before him.

[Mithalwen]

Not sure if this is a good moment to explain my rationality since I have been demented most of the day. I am not saying that a talking sword is impossible but I still think that given the state of Turin's mind the aural hallucination is not a peverse reading. It is not to be sure an issue that costs me any sleep. I don't think it devalues tolkien's imagination. I don't actually ever think of Tolkien's work as Fantasy. To me it is a fictional reality. And particularly in the Silmarillion the characters have a psychological depth which is sometimes lacking in the plot driven LOTR and hobbit. The events of the Silmarillion are so often character driven and so the mind set of the characters cannot be disregarded.

To clarify my differentiation of the three main works I would say that it is not that I regard the LOTR as being more true or accurate per se but say if LOTR is the Red Book of Westmarch it is presented as a book written and collated as very recent history, The Silmarillion would be Bilbo's translations from the Elvish and the Hobbit is the tale of Bilbo's adventures, andwe know that he economised with the truth about them..... if we have to accept them as "fact" in the same way as the LOTR then it means that most Elves of Rivendell metamorphasised in fifty years from being insanely camp and inane beings tralalalallying in their valley to being founts of nobility and wisdom (though not entirely uncamp). As for "translations" - well if only Elrond remains even at RIvendell who knows all the old lore correctly, must we take Bilbo's versions as Gospel? Although that is perhaps not the best choice of phrase since I don't take every word of the Bible as "gospell" and it didn't stop me being a Christian for many years - my lapse was entirely unrelated to cynicism about miracles.

I don't think it denigrates the immensity of Tolkien's creation to apply judgments about documentary sources that I would apply in the "real" world - in fact maybe it shows its strength.

[mark12_30]

The Silmarillion would be Bilbo's translations from the Elvish and the Hobbit is the tale of Bilbo's adventures, andwe know that he economised with the truth about them..... if we have to accept them as "fact" in the same way as the LOTR then it means that most Elves of Rivendell metamorphasised in fifty years from being insanely camp and inane beings tralalalallying in their valley to being founts of nobility and wisdom (though not entirely uncamp). As for "translations" - well if only Elrond remains even at RIvendell who knows all the old lore correctly,

Regarding tralalalallying: I do not think that the average elf was too stuck up for silliness. I think they were as changeable in their emotions as other folk; profound and merry, serious and silly. Recall Sam's opinion of Galadriel: "But I wish I could make a song about her. Beautiful she is, sir! Lovely! Sometimes like a great tree in flower, sometimes like a white daffadowndilly, small and slender like. Hard as di’monds, soft as moonlight. Warm as sunlight, cold as frost in the stars. Proud and far-off as a snow-mountain, and as merry as any lass I ever saw with daisies in her hair in springtime."

LOTR is written by Frodo back in the Shire, and I'm not surprised he remembered the uber-serious side of the elves, since he knew he'd be sailing west. Bilbo was a more relaxed sort, who enjoyed a good laugh. Frodo wrote about the Hall of Fire and songs to Elbereth; Bilbo wrote about dancing by the riverside on Midsummer's Eve.

Fordim Hedgethistle can be, and often is, quite profound. But he's not above throwing a gauntlet and being downright silly in the process. If he were unable to take himself lightly on occasion, I would be less likely to take him seriously the rest of the time.

Professor Tolkien could jest with his children, philosophize with other professors, drink beer while studying myths, and publish satires on old nursery rhymes. Judging by his own letters, he tried hard not to take himself too seriously. He wrote stories about the creation of the world, and he wrote stories about toy dogs lost at the beach. THe same guy that wrote The Lay of Leithan wrote Bombadil goes Boating.

Why are we so sure that Elrond wouldn't have joined in a round of Tralalalally? I'm not. I think he would have enjoyed it, taking a break from all the weightier matters.

Translations: "if only Elrond remains even at RIvendell who knows all the old lore correctly"-- where do you find this? Glorfindel doesn't count? And with all the travel Arwen does between Rivendell and Lorien, wouldn't she get the stories straight? Her grandmother knew them all, I'm sure.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Gurthang doesn't talk. Turin, or rather Tolkien through Turin, is projecting his other, conflicting personal torments: In his despair he justifies his imminent act (of suicide) by focusing on all the ill-things that he had done with ihis sword i.e. accidently killing Beleg, Brandir etc etc. (Turin)

But as Thingol turned the hilt of Anglachel toward Beleg, Melian looked at the blade; and she said: "There is malice in this sword. The dark heart of the smith still dwells in it. It will not love the hand it serves, neither will it abide with you long."

TS 21

I believe it may have spoken, but not in the way normal people understand "speaking". Near the end of the Third Age the Ring may have spoken to Sam (see link above), although I think it was actually Frodo's voice being used by the Ring. But the Ring, an inanimate object, managed to project its thoughts.

Sure, Gurthang/Anglachel might not be as powerful as the One, but it still has a will. The hate of its maker perhaps flowed to it. Perhaps it even influenced Túrin to cause the downfall of Nargothrond (pure speculation).

If it could do that, surely projecting a "Yes, I will kill you" thought to someone is a piece of cake.

Besides, if Tolkien was just using the sword as an object for Túrin to "blame", why would he make Melian see the innate malice of the sword? Doesn't that add a loose thread to Vairë's (history's) otherwise smooth tapestry?

(NOTE: I begin to see an echo of the "Do Balrogs have wings?" debate. )

[Kuruharan]

Besides, if Tolkien was just using the sword as an object for Túrin to "blame", why would he make Melian see the innate malice of the sword?

Perhaps, since she had some degree of foresight, she was giving a sort of prophetic warning of his fate?

(You know how it is a requirement of the Prophet's Guild to speak about something by talking about something else entirely.)