Have you no pride?

[Boromir88]

Pride is one of the seven deadly sins. You might take interest in viewing these two threads, pride is briefly talked about...

Seven deadly sins~Squatter of Amon Rhun

7 Deadly sins vs. 7 Heavenly virtues~Boromir88

The way I view it is there is pride and arrogance. I think one can have a certain amount of pride in them, it's a good trait to have. Then there's arrogance when you are just so full of yourselves. Of course many people associate Boromir with this trait. I think he is more "proud" then the other members, and in the end it very well could cost him.

However, a lot of people think just because he brags about Minas Tirith, means he's arrogant, talking as if Minas Tirith is the best. I don't view that as any different then me saying the US is the best place to live, it's just patriotic. Surely people from Germany, France, Czech Republic...etc will disagree, but it's a matter of patriotism.

It is said that patriotism was a reason for WW1. Everyone was so proud in their nation as being the best, being better then everyone else, they got into this arms race competition. So, I can see how Tolkien would look down on pride, since it is said to be one of the causes of WW1. For the time he was living in, I think it was common for people to look down on pride.

I hope that made sense .

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Thank you for linking to those threads, Boro. I had seen them before but 'twas useful to see them again.

Are you supposing that pride, then, is a good attribute, but that it is unfortunately joined at the hip with arrogance? If we cannot have one without the other then surely the one is just as bad as the other.

I must confess that I know nothing at all about Tolkien's religion. However, it appears to me as if he places an almost contradictory quality onto the notion of pride, perhaps that it is both good and bad. Is there a solution to this problem? Is it a problem?

[Sapphire_Flame]

There are three different kinds of pride, as I see it. Which one is possessed or displayed by an individual can give great insight to the person's character.

There is Arrogance-Pride, which is the negative connotation. This is the kind of pride associated with hard-heartedness and stubbornness. If you are lifted up in the pride of your heart, you are unwilling to accept other points of view or to negotiate on any point. This is, seemingly, what is seen frequently in Boromir, Denethor, and Saruman. They are always right and good, and anyone who even hints that they think otherwise are seen as insurgents. I think this is more of a trait of Saruman (and possibly Morgoth) than the men of Gondor.

Confidence-Pride is what is frequently associated with Aragorn. This kind of pride is more of a personal support; if you have confidence in your own abilities it could be interpreted as pride. But, unless you are absolutely unwilling to compromise your position or plans, this is a more positive sort of pride.

Pleased-Pride is pride in an accomplishment. Consider the variation on "I'm proud of him/her/you" that is used frequently in religious fora:

"...in whom I am well pleased..."

For examples of the above, I would give both Saruman and Feanor for Arrogance-Pride, for obvious reasons. In their refusal to compromise their own (flawed) ideals, they caused the pain and death of thousands, all for the protection of their own egos. When pride is taken to this extent, in whatever form, it must be seen as a negative trait.

I think that both Aragorn and Boromir fall under Confidence-Pride. Boromir is often seen as an arrogant individual, which I don't believe he is. He is proud, assuredly, but not to the point of being unbending. He does follow Aragorn, and ultimately recognizes Aragorn's right to the throne of Gondor. Had he been as arrogant as people claim he is, he would have refused to follow Aragorn at all; he would have set himself up as the leader of the Fellowship after Gandalf's fall, and the Quest would have gone painfully awry.

Abedithon le,

~ Saphy ~

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So you think that the term 'pride' is used in different contexts. Fair enough, is then the original question (did I have an original question, or was it just a bundle of gibberish?) reducible to confusions in our language-game? (I'm going to read some Wittgenstein!)

This seems odd. It renders a word that is apparently quite important to Tolkien into a vague expression. I'm not sure I could accept this. Is pride not a single, definable thing?





*If 'definable' is not a word............it is now!*

[Lalwendë]

To have some pride is important, to have pride in yourself enables you to assert yourself in difficult situations, it enables you to achieve goals, and to maintain your own sense of self. And when we say our pride has been hurt, then we mean our ego or sense of self has been hurt. But not all pride is necessarily good, and pride can be a very fragile thing.

Aragorn has pride - it always interests me how close his name is to the word arrogant - yet this is counterbalanced with humility. He is proud enough to realise his role and take control of situations yet not so proud that he cannot become friends with humble hobbits.

I'll use Denethor as an example of 'pride gone bad'. Where pride goes wrong is often in the case of stubbornness - where someone insists their way is the right way, as with Denethor. It can also go wrong when it leads us to taking risks, again with Denethor when he uses the Palantir. It can also lead us to be too proud of our achievements; this can be seen in Denethor's excess of pride in breeding a son like Boromir, which ultimately has bad effects for his son.

To have no pride at all would be difficult, as our sense of self would want to assert itself, but it is possible. But to be able to drop our pride is essential - as seen in the tragic consequences of Eol and Turgon's confrontation, if we can't back down or compromise, we've had it.

*If 'definable' is not a word............it is now!*

Ever considered a career in the civil service? Making up words is a highly sought after skill. You'd go down a storm in a strategic role...

[Aiwendil]

Sapphire_Flame wrote:

There is Arrogance-Pride, which is the negative connotation. This is the kind of pride associated with hard-heartedness and stubbornness. If you are lifted up in the pride of your heart, you are unwilling to accept other points of view or to negotiate on any point. This is, seemingly, what is seen frequently in Boromir, Denethor, and Saruman. They are always right and good, and anyone who even hints that they think otherwise are seen as insurgents. I think this is more of a trait of Saruman (and possibly Morgoth) than the men of Gondor.

There certainly is some connection between pride and arrogance. But I think there is a further distinction to be made here. Saruman (and probably Sauron and Morgoth, for that matter) had a kind of selfish pride. This is the sort that leads to the attitude that one is better or more important than others, and leads to selfish actions. Boromir, I would say, had a bit of this sort, insofar at least as he thought that the Stewards were now by right the rulers of Gondor (and this depends on how one reads Boromir's character). Something of the same thing can certainly be seen in many other characters - notably Feanor.

But there is a sort of pride that is also negative but that is not selfish. I am thinking here first of all of Turin. His pride was not selfish. He was in fact very easily moved to pity others, and nearly all his deeds were motivated by the desire to aid others. His fault is not one of selfishness or even really of arrogance (though it depends on exactly how one takes that word). Rather, it was "over-boldness" - he was too confident of his own ability and too reluctant to accept aid or to alter his counsel at the urging of others. This is something like your "confidence-pride", but I don't think it's quite identical. One can be proud and confident and yet be willing to accept good advice.

Of course, there's a reason all these things are collectively known by a single term. They are all related, and the lines between them often blur. Boromir had a certain amount of arrogance-pride, I think, but also a certain over-boldness. Feanor too certainly suffered from over-boldness.

[SamwiseGamgee]

It is interesting that when one turns to the dictionary the definition of pride given is:

pride n. too high an opinion of oneself; inordinate self-esteem; worthy self-esteem; feeling of elation or great satisfaction; something causing this- v. refl. take pride

interesting because it gives no clear cut answer, and in fact covers all the aspects that have been noted above.

One thing which would be interesting: to see would be just how many times Tolkien described his heroes as proud. I have a sneaking suspicion that the good Professor probably never used the term in an explicitly positive manner. Now, this may seem like a bold statement, but let me explain myself.

Eomer , you earlier referred to Tolkien's religion. As a devout Catholic, pride would have been a selfish trait, and as Boromir88 ably pointed out, it was one of the seven deadly sins. I therefore am drawn to the conclusion that Tolkien would have sub-consciously had no option but to use the term negatively due to his upbringing. (Which in itself raises a debate as regards relativism, but that's another thread entirely! )

Look at Frodo: at which point in the books could you describe him as proud? I'd submit at no point whatsoever, other than perhaps when The Ring overpowered him, and it exaggerated his sense of pride- increasing his own self-confidence to ridiculous levels, but I personally think that that isn't really his pride which is being warped, it is just his self-confidence, and those are, I would suggest, two different things.

Also, Eomer, your question as to whether pride and arrogance are intrinsically linked. I would say no in the normal sphere of language, but there is a possibility that they may be in the works of Tolkien. Arrogance has an edge of aggression to it, and self-esteem beyond even excess. There's an air of conceitedness to arrogance. Agressive conceit, perhaps. Now, in the normal world you could call someone proud, but it would not necessarily lead to the conclusion that they were arrogant. However, in Tolkien I think the two may be inextricable. On the premiss of above, I submit that those who may have been described as proud (Saruman, Denethor etc.) were also arrogant. After all, it takes a certain kind of mindset to honestly believe you can take on Sauron and win, no sweat.

Well, I've rambled on a bit, but I hope I've said something at least a little worthwhile.