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#1 |
Laconic Loreman
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Wonderful points everyone
![]() One more small detail to add about the plot, typically in a story after the climax the story will just fall and end with a resolution. It will rise with the conflict, at the height hit the climax, and then fall to the resolution. In LOTR it rises to the climax (destruction of the ring), then falls with the french term (lal help me again ![]() |
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#2 | ||||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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And then we follow the characters as they move through this world, we see the changing scenery with them, even discover it as they discover it for the first time. When we see Lothlorien for the first time, we see it through Hobbit eyes, we are there with them and get that same sense of wonder. Is this kind of structure linear though? Quote:
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denoument, denouement, denoumente....beauracrat, beurocrat, beaureaucrat....
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#3 | |||||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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Well, Professor Fordim, Sir, I hardly need hazard a reply since you have so cleverly reinvented my points.
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EDIT: Here's the letter # 66, 6 May 1944, written to CT: Quote:
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 12-10-2004 at 11:20 AM. Reason: found the letter |
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#4 | |
Dread Horseman
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,744
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Interesting topic, and interesting replies!
The structure of LotR, eh? I must confess that I'm a bit puzzled by criticisms of LotR as being overly episodic. In my view, the story has an uncommonly strong narrative spine, namely, the quest to destroy the Ring. Now, admittedly, several plot threads evolve into something more like "can we protect the things we're fighting to save until the Ring is destroyed?", but even these threads get back on task as the climax approaches and the characters not directly involved in the destruction of the Ring strive to keep Sauron's attention diverted from the real stroke. Almost all situations in the plot -- both in terms of external action (we must take a long journey into the heart of the enemy's kingdom) and internal conflict (shall I claim this precious thing as my own?) -- are driven by the Ring. One thing that I do find to be quite interesting and unusual about the structure of the piece is the complete division of the Frodo-Sam thread (Books 4 and most of 6) from the War of the Ring threads (Books 3 and 5). After the breaking of the Fellowship, one might expect the author to roughly alternate chapters, breaking the action at a suspensful moment in Frodo's quest to cut away to the action in the West, and vice versa. Instead, Tolkien follows each thread to a rough midpoint before alternating. In this sense, the narrative is most definitely not linear: we follow the War of the Ring all the way up to Gandalf's journey with Pippin to Minas Tirith before going back in time to see what has become of Frodo and Sam. What a surprising choice! I think the overall effect of it is to add to the book's feeling of history or memoir. The expected alternating construction would, I think, feel more "modern", more geared towards manipulating suspense in the reader. Although Tolkien is still able to achieve suspense, his unusual structure feels more like a recounting of events than like a tale designed to titillate the reader. I'm getting a little long-winded here, so I'll just briefly hit a few other points: I tend to disagree with the idea that the (allegedly) loose narrative structure is overcome by features of the setting -- details of geography or chronology. I think that for Tolkien, the world-building in Middle-earth was always subordinate to, and in service of, the story. So, rather than alter his story to fit the geography, he instead would solve problems with "map alterations" (letter 85). In letter 163, he proclaims: Quote:
Lalwendë, your shotgun tactics paid off: it's denouement (or if you prefer, dénouement). Nice breakdown of the story's elements up above, btw. Fordim, I'm a bit confused by the idea of a story with an essentially moral structure. What does that mean in terms of organizing the story and how it works? I certainly agree that there is a strong moral thematic component, but I'm not entirely clear on how you feel that plays into how the story is actually constructed or how it functions. |
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#5 |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
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I keep on getting in trouble whenever I mention this, but this thread is uniquely suited to it. Orson Scott Card detailed in his book, Characters and Viewpoint, that any story, no matter the type, is going to have four basic elements:
Milieu - the setting Idea - the "what-if" question (for example) Character - self-explanatory Event - the plot Thus, the handy acronym, MICE. But what he said next, speaks to some points Fordim has raised: ONE of these four story elements is going to serve as the centerpiece on which the other three hang. He goes on to assert, specifically, that LotR is a Milieu story; its centerpiece is Middle Earth at the end of the Third Age. The destruction of the Ring is that which will bring the Third Age to an end. This ending is both needed and regretted (or at least mourned) especially by the Elves, who nonetheless deem it necessary. This milieu centerpiece aspect of LotR take nothing away from the great characters, great plot, or the scope of the idea; something had to serve as the centerpiece. This explains why there needed to be a scouring of the Shire; the story of Third Age Middle Earth coming to an end was not finished being told until after the story of how Sharkey is defeated in the Shire; indeed, the story is not finished being told until all the characters whose lives were all about the now-destroyed Ring, had passed over sea or (in the case of Sam) resolved at least for the time being. The episodic nature serves not as a weakness of the story, but as a structural tool. Music has a similar counterpoint in "theme and variations". Just off hand, it seems to me that such a Milieu story could not have been written before the advent of whole world awareness that arrived with the 20th century and its world wars. All parts of Middle Earth are included in the tale, at least as far as they affect the story of the Middel Earth at the end of the Third Age, which is all about the destruction of the Ring. Okay, I've laid it out. Now you may protest, reproach, or whatever. *ducks* ![]() (I really don't know why people find this such an offensive - or impossible - explanation). ![]() LMP |
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#6 |
Dread Horseman
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,744
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*Underhill sets out MICE traps.*
We'll get those pesky buggers this time! |
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