Have you no pride?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So you think that the term 'pride' is used in different contexts. Fair enough, is then the original question (did I have an original question, or was it just a bundle of gibberish?) reducible to confusions in our language-game? (I'm going to read some Wittgenstein!)

This seems odd. It renders a word that is apparently quite important to Tolkien into a vague expression. I'm not sure I could accept this. Is pride not a single, definable thing?





*If 'definable' is not a word............it is now!*

[Lalwendë]

To have some pride is important, to have pride in yourself enables you to assert yourself in difficult situations, it enables you to achieve goals, and to maintain your own sense of self. And when we say our pride has been hurt, then we mean our ego or sense of self has been hurt. But not all pride is necessarily good, and pride can be a very fragile thing.

Aragorn has pride - it always interests me how close his name is to the word arrogant - yet this is counterbalanced with humility. He is proud enough to realise his role and take control of situations yet not so proud that he cannot become friends with humble hobbits.

I'll use Denethor as an example of 'pride gone bad'. Where pride goes wrong is often in the case of stubbornness - where someone insists their way is the right way, as with Denethor. It can also go wrong when it leads us to taking risks, again with Denethor when he uses the Palantir. It can also lead us to be too proud of our achievements; this can be seen in Denethor's excess of pride in breeding a son like Boromir, which ultimately has bad effects for his son.

To have no pride at all would be difficult, as our sense of self would want to assert itself, but it is possible. But to be able to drop our pride is essential - as seen in the tragic consequences of Eol and Turgon's confrontation, if we can't back down or compromise, we've had it.

*If 'definable' is not a word............it is now!*

Ever considered a career in the civil service? Making up words is a highly sought after skill. You'd go down a storm in a strategic role...

[Aiwendil]

Sapphire_Flame wrote:

There is Arrogance-Pride, which is the negative connotation. This is the kind of pride associated with hard-heartedness and stubbornness. If you are lifted up in the pride of your heart, you are unwilling to accept other points of view or to negotiate on any point. This is, seemingly, what is seen frequently in Boromir, Denethor, and Saruman. They are always right and good, and anyone who even hints that they think otherwise are seen as insurgents. I think this is more of a trait of Saruman (and possibly Morgoth) than the men of Gondor.

There certainly is some connection between pride and arrogance. But I think there is a further distinction to be made here. Saruman (and probably Sauron and Morgoth, for that matter) had a kind of selfish pride. This is the sort that leads to the attitude that one is better or more important than others, and leads to selfish actions. Boromir, I would say, had a bit of this sort, insofar at least as he thought that the Stewards were now by right the rulers of Gondor (and this depends on how one reads Boromir's character). Something of the same thing can certainly be seen in many other characters - notably Feanor.

But there is a sort of pride that is also negative but that is not selfish. I am thinking here first of all of Turin. His pride was not selfish. He was in fact very easily moved to pity others, and nearly all his deeds were motivated by the desire to aid others. His fault is not one of selfishness or even really of arrogance (though it depends on exactly how one takes that word). Rather, it was "over-boldness" - he was too confident of his own ability and too reluctant to accept aid or to alter his counsel at the urging of others. This is something like your "confidence-pride", but I don't think it's quite identical. One can be proud and confident and yet be willing to accept good advice.

Of course, there's a reason all these things are collectively known by a single term. They are all related, and the lines between them often blur. Boromir had a certain amount of arrogance-pride, I think, but also a certain over-boldness. Feanor too certainly suffered from over-boldness.

[SamwiseGamgee]

It is interesting that when one turns to the dictionary the definition of pride given is:

pride n. too high an opinion of oneself; inordinate self-esteem; worthy self-esteem; feeling of elation or great satisfaction; something causing this- v. refl. take pride

interesting because it gives no clear cut answer, and in fact covers all the aspects that have been noted above.

One thing which would be interesting: to see would be just how many times Tolkien described his heroes as proud. I have a sneaking suspicion that the good Professor probably never used the term in an explicitly positive manner. Now, this may seem like a bold statement, but let me explain myself.

Eomer , you earlier referred to Tolkien's religion. As a devout Catholic, pride would have been a selfish trait, and as Boromir88 ably pointed out, it was one of the seven deadly sins. I therefore am drawn to the conclusion that Tolkien would have sub-consciously had no option but to use the term negatively due to his upbringing. (Which in itself raises a debate as regards relativism, but that's another thread entirely! )

Look at Frodo: at which point in the books could you describe him as proud? I'd submit at no point whatsoever, other than perhaps when The Ring overpowered him, and it exaggerated his sense of pride- increasing his own self-confidence to ridiculous levels, but I personally think that that isn't really his pride which is being warped, it is just his self-confidence, and those are, I would suggest, two different things.

Also, Eomer, your question as to whether pride and arrogance are intrinsically linked. I would say no in the normal sphere of language, but there is a possibility that they may be in the works of Tolkien. Arrogance has an edge of aggression to it, and self-esteem beyond even excess. There's an air of conceitedness to arrogance. Agressive conceit, perhaps. Now, in the normal world you could call someone proud, but it would not necessarily lead to the conclusion that they were arrogant. However, in Tolkien I think the two may be inextricable. On the premiss of above, I submit that those who may have been described as proud (Saruman, Denethor etc.) were also arrogant. After all, it takes a certain kind of mindset to honestly believe you can take on Sauron and win, no sweat.

Well, I've rambled on a bit, but I hope I've said something at least a little worthwhile.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I hesitate to call the attribute of pride a necessary evil, but this is possibly what I'm getting at. Can we imagine a situation where no hero had pride? Would this make good and bad deeds impossible?

Perhaps the solution is a reply to whoever compiled the 7 deadly sins. Did you sir, use the term 'pride' in a vague sense? Because this discussion seems to be leaning in favour of pride as necessary.

[SamwiseGamgee]

Yes, Eomer, I think it is possible that heroes can work without pride. A hero can be motivated by many things other than pride and that can be to the exclusion of pride.

I think, though, that the pride I'm referring to above is self-pride, or that 'inordinate self-esteem' found in the dictionary. It is perhaps, as you suggested, Eomer, no more than a trick of our language, though, that I make this distinction. I have- unbelievably- just had a look through the King James Version Concordance, and every instance of the word pride or proud etc is negative. As an example:

"God resisteth the proud..." Jas 4:6

I'm not entirely sure that pride hasn't developed in our language to in fact include aspects it did not originally encompass. For example, pride in one's country is patriotism, not pride. It is a slackness of language today that we have allowed ourselves to simply say it's pride- because it's not.

[Lhunardawen]

All things in excess are bad. Too much pride is the root of all evil. It was excessive pride that caused Lucifer's downfall-- he took too much pride in his beauty and power, being one of the, if not the sole, highest angels. He thought he could overthrow God and rule all creation in His stead, so he took one-third of the angels and led a rebellion against God. But of course, no one could defeat the Creator of all things, so Lucifer and his angels were thrown from heaven and are now trying to seduce people to evil.

Sounds familiar? How about Morgoth? He was also chosen by Eru to be the most powerful of the Ainur, and then what? He tried to form his own chorale to rival that of Eru, but Eru's voice was more beautiful and dreadful and powerful, so Morgoth lost the Ainulindale Singing Competition (very loose translation...very loose).

See the pattern? All of the Middle-Earth characters you have previously mentioned have been bestowed with talents and strengths to die for; it is then up to them to use these gifts as they will. Will they rely solely on themselves and refuse others' aid? Will they try to grasp more than what they know is good for them? Will they seek dominion over those they deem weaker, though they know they should not? All these and more are manifestations of too much pride over what people are gifted with...which in the end will be harmful to their very selves.