The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-11-2004, 01:12 PM   #1
Aiwendil
Late Istar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Aiwendil is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Sapphire_Flame wrote:
Quote:
There is Arrogance-Pride, which is the negative connotation. This is the kind of pride associated with hard-heartedness and stubbornness. If you are lifted up in the pride of your heart, you are unwilling to accept other points of view or to negotiate on any point. This is, seemingly, what is seen frequently in Boromir, Denethor, and Saruman. They are always right and good, and anyone who even hints that they think otherwise are seen as insurgents. I think this is more of a trait of Saruman (and possibly Morgoth) than the men of Gondor.
There certainly is some connection between pride and arrogance. But I think there is a further distinction to be made here. Saruman (and probably Sauron and Morgoth, for that matter) had a kind of selfish pride. This is the sort that leads to the attitude that one is better or more important than others, and leads to selfish actions. Boromir, I would say, had a bit of this sort, insofar at least as he thought that the Stewards were now by right the rulers of Gondor (and this depends on how one reads Boromir's character). Something of the same thing can certainly be seen in many other characters - notably Feanor.

But there is a sort of pride that is also negative but that is not selfish. I am thinking here first of all of Turin. His pride was not selfish. He was in fact very easily moved to pity others, and nearly all his deeds were motivated by the desire to aid others. His fault is not one of selfishness or even really of arrogance (though it depends on exactly how one takes that word). Rather, it was "over-boldness" - he was too confident of his own ability and too reluctant to accept aid or to alter his counsel at the urging of others. This is something like your "confidence-pride", but I don't think it's quite identical. One can be proud and confident and yet be willing to accept good advice.

Of course, there's a reason all these things are collectively known by a single term. They are all related, and the lines between them often blur. Boromir had a certain amount of arrogance-pride, I think, but also a certain over-boldness. Feanor too certainly suffered from over-boldness.

Last edited by Aiwendil; 04-28-2005 at 12:02 PM.
Aiwendil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2004, 09:34 AM   #2
SamwiseGamgee
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
SamwiseGamgee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In the warm bosom of a Warg
Posts: 378
SamwiseGamgee has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

It is interesting that when one turns to the dictionary the definition of pride given is:
Quote:
pride n. too high an opinion of oneself; inordinate self-esteem; worthy self-esteem; feeling of elation or great satisfaction; something causing this- v. refl. take pride
interesting because it gives no clear cut answer, and in fact covers all the aspects that have been noted above.

One thing which would be interesting: to see would be just how many times Tolkien described his heroes as proud. I have a sneaking suspicion that the good Professor probably never used the term in an explicitly positive manner. Now, this may seem like a bold statement, but let me explain myself.

Eomer , you earlier referred to Tolkien's religion. As a devout Catholic, pride would have been a selfish trait, and as Boromir88 ably pointed out, it was one of the seven deadly sins. I therefore am drawn to the conclusion that Tolkien would have sub-consciously had no option but to use the term negatively due to his upbringing. (Which in itself raises a debate as regards relativism, but that's another thread entirely! )

Look at Frodo: at which point in the books could you describe him as proud? I'd submit at no point whatsoever, other than perhaps when The Ring overpowered him, and it exaggerated his sense of pride- increasing his own self-confidence to ridiculous levels, but I personally think that that isn't really his pride which is being warped, it is just his self-confidence, and those are, I would suggest, two different things.

Also, Eomer, your question as to whether pride and arrogance are intrinsically linked. I would say no in the normal sphere of language, but there is a possibility that they may be in the works of Tolkien. Arrogance has an edge of aggression to it, and self-esteem beyond even excess. There's an air of conceitedness to arrogance. Agressive conceit, perhaps. Now, in the normal world you could call someone proud, but it would not necessarily lead to the conclusion that they were arrogant. However, in Tolkien I think the two may be inextricable. On the premiss of above, I submit that those who may have been described as proud (Saruman, Denethor etc.) were also arrogant. After all, it takes a certain kind of mindset to honestly believe you can take on Sauron and win, no sweat.

Well, I've rambled on a bit, but I hope I've said something at least a little worthwhile.
__________________
-- Well, I'm back.
SamwiseGamgee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2004, 09:00 AM   #3
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Auspicious Wraith
 
Eomer of the Rohirrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,859
Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Boots

I hesitate to call the attribute of pride a necessary evil, but this is possibly what I'm getting at. Can we imagine a situation where no hero had pride? Would this make good and bad deeds impossible?

Perhaps the solution is a reply to whoever compiled the 7 deadly sins. Did you sir, use the term 'pride' in a vague sense? Because this discussion seems to be leaning in favour of pride as necessary.
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond
Eomer of the Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2004, 09:38 AM   #4
SamwiseGamgee
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
SamwiseGamgee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In the warm bosom of a Warg
Posts: 378
SamwiseGamgee has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

Yes, Eomer, I think it is possible that heroes can work without pride. A hero can be motivated by many things other than pride and that can be to the exclusion of pride.

I think, though, that the pride I'm referring to above is self-pride, or that 'inordinate self-esteem' found in the dictionary. It is perhaps, as you suggested, Eomer, no more than a trick of our language, though, that I make this distinction. I have- unbelievably- just had a look through the King James Version Concordance, and every instance of the word pride or proud etc is negative. As an example:
Quote:
"God resisteth the proud..." Jas 4:6
I'm not entirely sure that pride hasn't developed in our language to in fact include aspects it did not originally encompass. For example, pride in one's country is patriotism, not pride. It is a slackness of language today that we have allowed ourselves to simply say it's pride- because it's not.
__________________
-- Well, I'm back.
SamwiseGamgee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2004, 02:38 AM   #5
Lhunardawen
Hauntress of the Havens
 
Lhunardawen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IN it, but not OF it
Posts: 2,538
Lhunardawen has been trapped in the Barrow!
Silmaril

All things in excess are bad. Too much pride is the root of all evil. It was excessive pride that caused Lucifer's downfall-- he took too much pride in his beauty and power, being one of the, if not the sole, highest angels. He thought he could overthrow God and rule all creation in His stead, so he took one-third of the angels and led a rebellion against God. But of course, no one could defeat the Creator of all things, so Lucifer and his angels were thrown from heaven and are now trying to seduce people to evil.

Sounds familiar? How about Morgoth? He was also chosen by Eru to be the most powerful of the Ainur, and then what? He tried to form his own chorale to rival that of Eru, but Eru's voice was more beautiful and dreadful and powerful, so Morgoth lost the Ainulindale Singing Competition (very loose translation...very loose).

See the pattern? All of the Middle-Earth characters you have previously mentioned have been bestowed with talents and strengths to die for; it is then up to them to use these gifts as they will. Will they rely solely on themselves and refuse others' aid? Will they try to grasp more than what they know is good for them? Will they seek dominion over those they deem weaker, though they know they should not? All these and more are manifestations of too much pride over what people are gifted with...which in the end will be harmful to their very selves.
Lhunardawen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2004, 09:14 PM   #6
Keeper of Dol Guldur
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Keeper of Dol Guldur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls.
Posts: 405
Keeper of Dol Guldur has just left Hobbiton.
Re:

This is simple enough;

Confidence is in the middle of a teeter-totter, pride is on one end, and modesty / humbleness is on the other.

Balancing it in the middle is tricky - it swings one way or another a lot, but as long as neither end hits the ground, things should be okay.

You'll have to forgive my elementary school playground description for it, but it was the simplest thing I could think of off the top of my head. Possibly over-simple. But, it works.
__________________
"I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling
Keeper of Dol Guldur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2004, 12:52 PM   #7
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Auspicious Wraith
 
Eomer of the Rohirrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,859
Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Boots

Keeper, are you saying that pride and modesty are bad things in themselves?
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond
Eomer of the Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:54 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.