Is manipulation evil? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

gorthaur_cruel · 12-12-2004, 10:18 AM

I don't think we can compare the Ring/Saruman's manipulation with that of Gandalf, and not only because of the intention.

The Ring and Saruman tries to force people to do what they(the Ring/Saruman) want them to do, regardless of their own will. On reflection, after the Ring/Saruman's influence has worn off, they wonder what came over them.

Not so with Gandalf. Indeed, Gandalf doesn't make Bilbo do anything. He just gets angry because Bilbo accuses him of trying to take the Ring from him. And for Theoden, he merely attacks Wormtongue in front of him. He doesn't threaten Theoden to do what he wants. In both cases, Gandalf leaves the decision up to them. He may try to prod them in the direction that he wants, but he doesn't try to take control of their minds to do what he wants. Bilbo and Theoden make up their own decision, without any sort of internal influence from Gandalf. They do not wonder whether they were bewitched or not on reflection.

12-12-2004, 10:18 AM	#10
gorthaur_cruel Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 92	I don't think we can compare the Ring/Saruman's manipulation with that of Gandalf, and not only because of the intention. The Ring and Saruman tries to force people to do what they(the Ring/Saruman) want them to do, regardless of their own will. On reflection, after the Ring/Saruman's influence has worn off, they wonder what came over them. Not so with Gandalf. Indeed, Gandalf doesn't make Bilbo do anything. He just gets angry because Bilbo accuses him of trying to take the Ring from him. And for Theoden, he merely attacks Wormtongue in front of him. He doesn't threaten Theoden to do what he wants. In both cases, Gandalf leaves the decision up to them. He may try to prod them in the direction that he wants, but he doesn't try to take control of their minds to do what he wants. Bilbo and Theoden make up their own decision, without any sort of internal influence from Gandalf. They do not wonder whether they were bewitched or not on reflection.