**The Return of the King Extended Edition**

[Essex]

Negative points first .

First of all, I don't understand why Jackson left out the Gandalf / witch king scene from the theatrical release. still, he may explain this on the commentaries that I've yet to watch.

The first thing I noticed when the film ended was where was the 48 minutes of new scenes? It just didn't feel like there was that much extra.

Houses of healing. Really, there was hardly anything at all. Just Aragorn squeezing some water over eowyn's face. And, what, 30 seconds between Eowyn and Faramir to fall in love?

And final negative point. I was desperatly waiting for any scenes of Merry's entrance into Minas Tirith and Gandalf's best line that Merry should have been brought inot the city in great honour. Also, Eowyn's line to eomer that Merry should be made a Knight of Rohan. Pity, really.

Anyway, enough negatives, now positives.

The Mouth of Sauron. Whow, best 'monster' in the film by a mile. Absoultely rivetting. The way he quickly snaps his head towards each person as they talk or make a sound. Really creepy. And hey, I don't mind him having his head chopped off by Aragorn.

crossroads. yay! although it's sam that noticies the shaft of light lighting up the king's head, not frodo. one of my favourite parts of the book back in.

aragorn with the palantir. really explains how he diverts sauron's gaze from the hobbits. I know this happens earlier in the book, but it seems to me to be faithful to what actually happens. although the evenstar smashing to pieces???? why?

voice of saruman. excellent. why are people complaining that theoretically they could not have heard saruman's voice from that far up. What, and they're ok with a magic ring making someone invisible????

Eomer explaining to eowyn that war wasn't for women and hobbits. ha ha ha, you silly fool, with one quick stab from a hobbit and a final blow from a woman, the fate of Middle-earth was saved. without the death of the witch king, minas tirith would probably be raised to the ground, and more importantly, the two orc hunters that frodo and sam stumbled upon would have no doubt found the hobbits and captured the Ring. end of story......

sam and frodo caught by the travelling orcs. pretty much as the book is, except I don't remember frodo picking a fight with Sam in the book!

What a lot of these scenes give us, as in TT, is explanations to some of the sticking points in the theatrical release. for example, Pippin now seing Minas Tirith in flames (rather than Aragorn later on) has more credence, as Gandalf is told by Saruman that 'something festers in the heart of middle-earth' (ie denethor / minas tirith) and Gandalf doesn't know at that point exactly where Sauron will strike. when pippin explains his vision, gandalf understands.

corsairs. at least he didn't waste too much time over this with a major fight scene. one quick shot of jackson taking a fall and it was over.

Lots of other points to mention, but we'll no doubt pick up on them over the next few weeks on these boards.

[Boromir88]

Essex,

Eomer explaining to eowyn that war wasn't for women and hobbits. ha ha ha, you silly fool, with one quick stab from a hobbit and a final blow from a woman, the fate of Middle-earth was saved.

You got to love irony .

although the evenstar smashing to pieces???? why?

I'm guessing PJ needed a way to explain why Aragorn would die if he was giving Evenstar. Arwen gave Evenstar to Frodo. So, I think PJ just wanted to show, well, heck if Aragorn has Evenstar why does he die? I know I have been asked that many times.

Don't get me started on Denethor, that'll get me in a bad mood all day .

Overall though I enjoyed the extra scenes, I thought it tied up a lot of the loose ends.

[Turin]

My overall impression from the EE is that it doesn't reconcile many of my disappointments that I had with the theatrical version. In fact, it has rather deflated my (already deflating) enthusiasm for the Trilogy, in general.

Some of my observations:

1. Voice of Saruman scene just didn't do it for me. There is no ominous atmosphere created and Saruman's death was pretty pathetic: they could have at least made it so that his body disappears and his spirit departs.

2. The swaggering Aragorn. I think the over-use of the Army of the Dead lessens the impact that Aragorn and co have in determining a successful outcome to the Battle of Pelennor. I think it would have been nice to show that there were many Gondorians who had been freed from the Corsairs and aid Minas Tirith at the last moment. Also, are Gimli and Legolas still playing their Orc-counting game? Talk about over-egging the pudding!!

3. The dialogue. To put it mildly: Inconsistent. At times moving and well-thought out, at other times, appalling and laughable!! Especially Gandalf's lines.

4. Denethor. Still no improvement and probably the worst characterisation in the whole trilogy. Awful.

5. Mouth of Sauron. I always imagined him to be an ominous, creepy character, more man than orc (which is how I feel he is portrayed in the movie). Instead it is almost comical the way he is portrayed. I wanted to laugh, not hold my breath in dreaded anticipation!

6. Gandalf Vs Witch King. I thought that this would have been one of the most dramatic scenes in the whole of the trilogy. I would have liked this scene to have been more closer to the book: Gandalf holding his own at the Gate and not being intimidated. It's ridiculous, after all that Gandalf has been through (including having his powers enhanced) that he should succumb so easily to the Lord of the Nazgul and have his staff broken. Come on!

7. Eowyn and Merry. I thought that they could have suffered a bit more in the Houses of Healing! I agree that Gandalf's words in the book when Merry is being led by Pippin would have been particularly poignant.

[Essex]

I know I've already had my say, but let me point out one thing re the Witch King / Gandalf confrontation:


Gandalf could NOT have Killed the Witch King.


This is pretty much fact. The Propechy (which was Fulfilled) was that no man could defeat the Witch King. Now, you may say Gandalf was not a Man, but Gandalf was given that form, along with its strengths and weaknesses, and to me, this therefore makes the Witch King impervious to him.

Gandalf's staff. IMO I believe this was broken to make the next scene with him confronting Denethor more of a contest than just being able to zap him with his staff. Remember Gandalf had to nab a spear off one of the guards to knock him down with.....Just my opinion and I'll be interseted to hear Jackson's point on this on the commentary if he has one.

[Boromir88]

I thought anything with Denethor in it was done badly. The Pyre scene especially. I mean Denethor pours oil on himself, gets too close to a flame, goes up in flames, runs out screaming, like a maniac. What did you expect? You poured flammable liquid on yourself and caught on fire.

Gandalf could NOT have Killed the Witch King.

This is pretty much fact. The Propechy (which was Fulfilled) was that no man could defeat the Witch King. Now, you may say Gandalf was not a Man, but Gandalf was given that form, along with its strengths and weaknesses, and to me, this therefore makes the Witch King impervious to him.

Makes sense to me. As you've said, eventhough Gandalf wasn't a "man," his powers were limitted and he was shown in man form. We also, must remember, that the Witch-king is no chump either. Eowyn would have gotten annhilated if it wasn't for Merry. (Sorry Eowyn I still love you ).

[Boromir88]

I know I'm posting again, but a thought came to me on Saruman.

Turin,

1. Voice of Saruman scene just didn't do it for me. There is no ominous atmosphere created and Saruman's death was pretty pathetic:

Actually, I thought Chris Lee captured Saruman's voice perfectly. Exactly as I imagined it. After hearing his voice, I can see that Chris Lee truly understands Tolkien. Also, since PJ cut out the Scouring I thought the death of Saruman was really the best way they could have done it.

First-It's a metareference back to his earlier days as Dracula. Where several times Chris Lee is impaled on a wheel of spikes.

Second- If you think about it. Tolkien hates industry, hates machinery. Saruman is one that built up, he was like the "Germany," he was always mixing races, building industries, creating rings, in search for power. I think it's only natural that Saruman dies on his own machines that he constructed, a rather fitting end.

[The Saucepan Man]

I have a copy of the EE which I purchased last Friday, but I still haven't had a chance to watch it yet. Christmas preparations (Christmas tree, wrapping up presents etc) pretty much took up the whole weekend, and now I'm back at work ...

Still, I am savouring the anticipation.

One small, but important, point:

Originally Posted by Essex

Gandalf could NOT have Killed the Witch King.


This is pretty much fact. The Propechy (which was Fulfilled) was that no man could defeat the Witch King. Now, you may say Gandalf was not a Man, but Gandalf was given that form, along with its strengths and weaknesses, and to me, this therefore makes the Witch King impervious to him.

The prophecy was to the effect that the Witch King would not be killed by a man, not that he could not be killed by a man. The Witch King was not therefore "impervious" to Gandalf. It was just that, according to the prophecy, the circumstances would never arise whereby a man would be in a position to destroy the Witch King.

Nevertheless, I doubt that any of the points that have been raised will impair my enjoyment of the EE. After all, these films tell a different story from the book, so inconsistencies between the films and the book don't really bother me. As long as they enhance the films as films and don't introduce any inconsistencies within the films, then I'll be happy. And, on that basis, it sounds as if I have a treat in store.

[Avie]

Got to agree with comments regarding Denethor. Dreadful melodramatic acting (you half expect folks to yell Boo! Hiss! when he appears so much a pantomime villian does he appear) and no sense whatsoever of Tolkien's "noble mind overthrown"
And film Faramir...YACK. Total damsel in distress requiring rescuing from this or that at roughly hourly intervals...
Loved the extended Paths of the Dead sequences though and the added palantir scene with Aragorn is good too.
The EE is worth having but does not undo the general film-version mess made of Denethor's family.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

IThe prophecy was to the effect that the Witch King would not be killed by a man, not that he could not be killed by a man. The Witch King was not therefore "impervious" to Gandalf. It was just that, according to the prophecy, the circumstances would never arise whereby a man would be in a position to destroy the Witch King.

OK, you seem to be better versed in the circumstances of this Prophecy (I admit I can't get my hands on when it's actually said - is it in the Council of Elrond or unfinished tales or what?)

But to add to my point of view, Mr Angmar himself is fairly sure of himself, but I suppose this could be misguided arrogance......

WK (to Eowyn) as he's about to kick her butt: (or so he thinks)

Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!

I've no doubt missed the thread or forgotten about it where we've discussed this before. Or it may have been before my time....